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My favorite worship artist and a wonderful song
The Incarnation happened.
The Divine Logos has a body.
Those members of the body participate with the Head.
This is the historic christian faith. We all participate in Christ's salvation of the world. That this works out in space and time where the rubber meets the road should be no scandal to anyone who professes Christ. Mary and all the saints participate with Christ in the salvation of the world. Our hymns celebrate the fact that "God is wondrous in His saints."
Understand our hymns in that context, or understand that you don't understand them. And if you understand that you don't understand them, then do the intellectually honest thing and go on your way.
Yes, please.
Well, the Small Paraklesis is where the hymn is from, so even with another version, I wouldn't expect any drastic wording changes.
Thank you. That is pretty much what I expected to hear, which leaves us with the initial conundrum.
Thank you. That is pretty much what I expected to hear, which leaves us with the initial conundrum.
I understand your thinking. However, I am not aware of anyone asking another person to save them, spiritually, other than asking deceased saints, especially Mary, to do so.
In fact, when Cornelius first met Peter in Acts 10 he bowed down to him. Peter, however, corrected him, informing him that he was just a man, too, and then preached the gospel to him and his household.
I understand your thinking. However, I am not aware of anyone asking another person to save them, spiritually, other than asking deceased saints, especially Mary, to do so.
In fact, when Cornelius first met Peter in Acts 10 he bowed down to him. Peter, however, corrected him, informing him that he was just a man, too, and then preached the gospel to him and his household.
And in other passages we see that other people "save" other people (e.g., Paul), and that *we* "save" other people (e.g., James). Thus, scripturally, there is a sense in which it is only appropriate to say that God saves us, and there is another sense in which it is appropriate to say that humans save other humans. Our hymns and prayers, like the Scriptures, make regular use of both. And when placed in context, we understand the difference.
And in other passages we see that other people "save" other people (e.g., Paul), and that *we* "save" other people (e.g., James). Thus, scripturally, there is a sense in which it is only appropriate to say that God saves us, and there is another sense in which it is appropriate to say that humans save other humans. Our hymns and prayers, like the Scriptures, make regular use of both. And when placed in context, we understand the difference.
IOW...when Christ commissioned the Apostle to teach, the object was to save.
A dubious theory. It would be more correct to say that the one who saves commissioned them to teach about him.
Even if we agreed to that proposition, there is much, much more in that hymn and in prayers that are similar to it than this lone "save." It's impossible to make the import of this hymn into its opposite.
If I pulled someone out from a horrible car caccident and took them to the hospital and the doctors saved their life, could you say I saved their life? Of course you could. The only thing Mary does is lead us to her Son...who saves us. Given the above example, we can absolutely say Mary saves.
I have always understood it from a different perspective. Using your analogy, I think it would be more appropriate to say that instead of pulling the person out and bringing them to the doctor, you go to the doctor and plead and beg him to both pull him out from the accident, bring him to the doctor, and also save him. You are pleading to the doctor to be the one that saves, but you do no saving of your own.
I believe God is the only Savior and deserves 100% of the glory for saving sinners. When I pray that God will open the hearts of non-believers and they eventually become Christians, I do not say that I saved anyone.
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