Humans are not self-aware

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What we really have are only fragments of the truth.

By your own maxim, we can't be certain of that

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

so there must be something more to it - perhaps it's an appealing claim, you want it to be true; and/or it's a deeply familiar claim (perhaps you've always believed it); and/or a lot of people believe it; and/or people you respect believe it; and/or it fills a need, you'd feel lost without it; and/or it makes you feel good...

LOL! I would say all of the above. You see,I have been born again.That is kind of hard to explain to someone who does not believe in God.

My reason for probing this way is because I'm interested in why people believe the things they do, and whether they have the self-awareness to have thought about the reasons (as Plato/Socrates said, "An unexamined life is not worth living"). Of course, not everyone wants to understand why they do what they do, and not everyone wants to describe it to others...

I believe in God. I believe in Lord Jesus (the Word) and the Holy Ghost(Spirit) indwells me. It would be kind of foolish to try to explain God to one who does not believe that He is.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

LOL! I would say all of the above. You see,I have been born again.That is kind of hard to explain to someone who does not believe in God.

OK; it's just that none of those things are particularly reliable indicators of reality or truth. If you're happy to believe because it makes you feel good, etc., that's OK, but it's not a basis for truth claims.

I believe in God. I believe in Lord Jesus (the Word) and the Holy Ghost(Spirit) indwells me. It would be kind of foolish to try to explain God to one who does not believe that He is.

OK. You are unable or unwilling to articulate why you believe (and you think it would be foolish?)

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

OK; it's just that none of those things are particularly reliable indicators of reality or truth. If you're happy to believe because it makes you feel good, etc., that's OK, but it's not a basis for truth claims.

Lord Jesus is my truth.
John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

OK. You are unable or unwilling to articulate why you believe (and you think it would be foolish?)

You would not understand.So, there is no point.

 

[timewerx]

It's not a very good analogy because position and momentum are Fourier transforms of each other, conjugate variables, so the 'uncertainty' is, ironically, well-defined; which is not the case with uncertainty about the future, which is a function of incomplete knowledge, complexity, non-linear dynamics, and so-on.

You can still extrapolate the truth but what you have are only percentages of possibilities and work on that so you're not totally operating blind.

It may offer a glimpse of things we can't see yet or not yet discovered / explored.

 

[timewerx]

If you are right about something, however, don't let others tell you you have to compromise the truth to appease other parties (e.g. to remain "humble") - no matter how acceptable the truth is, or how agreed upon it is. We have to boldly speak the truth, and wipe the dust off of our shoes when people show us first they want nothing to do with us.

There is no such thing as "his truth, her truth, my truth," there is only the truth.

Many Christians don't even know what humility really is.

Humility that Jesus talked about is mostly about seeking "low places" here on Earth. Not seeking worldly riches, fame, power to gain advantage over others.

He said those things in note of Pharisees being greedy about positions of influence and power.

It has nothing to do with being quiet about startling revelations.

And the Truth had always been startling. Moses had to deal with it, and then Jesus and finally, the two witnesses.

People forget easily and then twist the truth to suit worldy desires. That's why the Pharisees saw Jesus as the enemy.

 

[Ophiolite]

It would be kind of foolish to try to explain God to one who does not believe that He is.

It is odd, is it not, that a scientist can explain a hypothesis to a colleague who doubts that hypothesis, yet the scientist can still deliver a clear explanation that is comprehended by the colleague. Or a doctor can explain his diagnosis to another doctor, even though that doctor believes an entirely different illness is responsible for the symptoms. An an engineer can explain his reason for thinking turbine blade failed before the interrupted fuel supply, though his audience believe the reverse.

But, for some reason, you are unable to explain your belief in God, just because your audience don't believe in God. Is this something reflecting your own limitations, or would it apply to all (most, many) Christians?

 

[timewerx]

My reason for probing this way is because I'm interested in why people believe the things they do, and whether they have the self-awareness to have thought about the reasons (as Plato/Socrates said, "An unexamined life is not worth living"). Of course, not everyone wants to understand why they do what they do, and not everyone wants to describe it to others...

In my case, I don't actually believe everything in the Bible to be 100% true or wise.

The parts of the Bible I trust above 90% is only a small percent of the Bible.

I look for real world evidence. Not necessarily the person exists but if the teachings of Christ can be supported by statistics, especially, country-wide statistics. Not necessarily in the religious context but more or less secular or even from scientific studies of human behavior, economy, sociology, environment / sustainability, and politics.

Most parts of the Bible I don't trust are the ones that became more or less orthodox in the Christian religion.

Ironically, these are also the ones Jesus did not gave explicit approval / permission. As I came to understand, Jesus is not promoting an organized Religious movement for that will defeat the purpose of knowing the truth. A human organization have a reliable tendency to devolve into corruption.

Seeking the Truth is probably more important than knowing His name.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I look for real world evidence.

Seeking the Truth is probably more important than knowing His name.

Yes, and God says that no one has an excuse not to believe in Him - He says all creation , everything He Himself Created, IS the only evidence needed to know that He Exists.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

It is odd, is it not, that a scientist can explain a hypothesis to a colleague who doubts that hypothesis, yet the scientist can still deliver a clear explanation that is comprehended by the colleague. Or a doctor can explain his diagnosis to another doctor, even though that doctor believes an entirely different illness is responsible for the symptoms. An an engineer can explain his reason for thinking turbine blade failed before the interrupted fuel supply, though his audience believe the reverse.

But, for some reason, you are unable to explain your belief in God, just because your audience don't believe in God. Is this something reflecting your own limitations, or would it apply to all (most, many) Christians?

It puzzles me that someone who claim they do not believe my God even exists wants me to explain Him to them.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You would not understand.So, there is no point.

Would anyone understand?

I don't have to empathise to understand - I can understand a rational description even if it is of an irrational impulse, feeling, or desire, and I can grasp a well-chosen simile or analogy.

That you think I won't understand, and you won't even make an attempt to describe or explain, despite having no idea of my previous religious or transcendent experiences, is interesting in itself.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It puzzles me that someone who claim they do not believe my God even exists wants me to explain Him to them.

You've mistaken the question - I was not asking for an explanation of your God (whatever that might mean), but why you believe, what you see as the prime reasons for your belief.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Would anyone understand?

Some who are seeking truth would understand and would receive my explanation.

I don't have to empathise to understand - I can understand a rational description even if it is of an irrational impulse, feeling, or desire, and I can grasp a well-chosen simile or analogy.

What is your definition of "rational description"?

That you think I won't understand, and you won't even make an attempt to describe or explain, despite having no idea of my previous religious or transcendent experiences, is interesting in itself.

Your profile says you are atheist. That says to me that you have not had religious or transcendent experience. It would be helpful to me to know what kind of religious or transcendent experience you have had.

You've mistaken the question - I was not asking for an explanation of your God (whatever that might mean), but why you believe, what you see as the prime reasons for your belief.

He is the reason I believe, but that makes no sense to you since to you He does not exist.

 

[Ophiolite]

It puzzles me that someone who claim they do not believe my God even exists wants me to explain Him to them.

Strange. It puzzles me that someone would not want to know that.

You are a fellow human. If I understand you correctly your belief in God is not only the most important thing in your life, in one sense it is your life. This is a characteristic you share with many millions. How could I not be interested in having you at least attempt to explain your belief to me. Do you imagine that atheists are devoid of curiosity, or have no interest in people who do not share their beliefs? If you tell me this is so, I shall be obliged to accept it, but I shall still find it mighty peculiar.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

You are a fellow human. If I understand you correctly your belief in God is not only the most important thing in your life, in one sense it is your life. This is a characteristic you share with many millions.

Yes . It is in Him I live and move and have my being. For it is written:
Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

I am in Him. He is in me. Do you understand this?

 

[Ophiolite]

I am in Him. He is in me. Do you understand this?

Of course I do. One doesn't have to be a theist to have a spiritual experience. So, to take it one step further, your belief comes about from having had one or more such experiences, perhaps to the point where a sense of it is always there - at least at background level.

(And please, please, please, don't now go all protective and try to tell me that your spiritual experience was real, because it was with God, and mine was some faux experience. Don't do that.)

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Of course I do. One doesn't have to be a theist to have a spiritual experience. So, to take it one step further, your belief comes about from having had one or more such experiences, perhaps to the point where a sense of it is always there - at least at background level.

Explain to me what you understand about being born.

 

[Ophiolite]

Explain to me what you understand about being born.

I presume you are referring to the notion of being born again, in which, through a spiritual experience one establishes a personal relationship with God, or with Christ, or with the Trinity. I'm not clear, what if anything, you are asking for beyond that.

It would help if your requests/questions were as specific as possible. That way my latent paranoia won't erupt and I won't suspect you of trying to trick me into a particular response. And it will certainly help me to give the most pertinent answer.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I presume you are referring to the notion of being born again, in which, through a spiritual experience one establishes a personal relationship with God, or with Christ, or with the Trinity. I'm not clear, what if anything, you are asking for beyond that.

It would help if your requests/questions were as specific as possible. That way my latent paranoia won't erupt and I won't suspect you of trying to trick me into a particular response. And it will certainly help me to give the most pertinent answer.

Explain to me what you understand about being born into your family. That ought to be simple.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Some who are seeking truth would understand and would receive my explanation.

Are you implying that I am not seeking truth?

What is your definition of "rational description"?

A description based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

Your profile says you are atheist. That says to me that you have not had religious or transcendent experience.

Seriously? You think that people who don't believe in a god or gods don't have transcendent experiences? or that atheists cannot have been religious and had religious experiences?

It would be helpful to me to know what kind of religious or transcendent experience you have had.

You wouldn't understand

I've had a variety of transcendent experiences, but whether they might be considered religious is a matter of interpretation - I experienced them as extreme distortions of my perception of the environment, my sense of self, bounds of self, location of self, emotional state, etc., i.e. unusual neurological activity associated with my perception and self image. Someone else might have experienced them as religious visions, transport to another plane, sensing the sublime or God's love, oneness with the universe or God, etc.

He is the reason I believe, but that makes no sense to you since to you He does not exist.

It makes no sense to me because 'He' is just a pronoun - you haven't explained or described what it is about Him that inspires your belief.

I don't have to believe a conspiracy theory is true to understand why some people do. By analogy, doughnuts (donuts) can be the reason a person is fat, but when asked why doughnuts can make a person fat, saying "You're not fat, you wouldn't understand" or, "You don't like doughnuts, you wouldn't understand" is likely to be taken as an evasion.