HUD rolls back protections on transgender individuals

[FireDragon76]

Yes, I agree with this. I think it would be another version of the sex-segregated shelters that already exist, and the idea that these places can't provide additional arrangements so that the needs of transgender people are met as well strikes me as absurd. There are alternatives aside from eliminating biological gender entirely as a category and abandoning transgender people on the streets.

What I'm not keen on is treating sexual assault and human trafficking survivors who might be triggered by the idea of sleeping in the same room as someone who is biologically male as if they are somehow bigots and oppressors instead of victims. I don't think it's reasonable to talk only about the needs of one oppressed group while completely ignoring a second one, and the fact that I see women who talk about this written off as hysterical and threatened with violence is really worrying on a number of different levels.

Protecting vulnerable women is not what this is about for the HUD, it's about pandering to Trump's bigoted base by scoring another hollow victory in the so-called "culture wars".

 

[durangodawood]

Seems like certain human cultures have had a difficult time dealing with the fact that gender isnt 100% binary or completely aligned between body and psyche.

This problem seems particularly bad in Abrahamic faith cultures, but perhaps my understanding isnt broad enough.

 

[PloverWing]

Do you have a better, less openly biased source that doesn't come up with a phrase like "filled with coded language."?

Here's the document from HUD.gov: HUD Updates Equal Access Rule, Returns Decision Making to Local Shelter Providers | HUD.gov / U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Quoting from the document:

"The Equal Access rule requires all HUD funded housing services to be provided without discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. The new rule allows shelter providers that lawfully operate as single-sex or sex-segregated facilities to voluntarily establish a policy that will govern admissions determinations for situations when an individual’s gender identity does not match their biological sex. Each shelter’s policy is required to be consistent with state and local law, must not discriminate based on sexual orientation or transgender status, and may incorporate practical considerations of shelter providers that often operate in difficult conditions. The proposed rule modifications also better accommodate religious beliefs of shelter providers. For example, such policies could be based on biological sex, sex as identified on official government identification, or the current rule’s mandate of self-identified gender identity.
...
All shelters serving a specific sex must provide people who they do not accommodate with information about other shelters in the area that can meet their needs. Similarly, if a shelter elects in its policy to accommodate persons whose gender identity is different from their sex, persons who have concerns with being housed with persons of a different biological sex, such concerned persons must be provided a referral to a facility whose policy is based on biological sex. The Department will continue to maintain the 2012 portion of the Equal Access Rule which prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity."

The good news that I see here is that 1) discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is prohibited; 2) the rule only applies to single-sex and sex-segregated shelters (so other shelters must still accept everyone); and 3) the shelter must provide a referral to a different shelter if they turn someone away.

The bad side of it, of course, is that I wouldn't want to keep knocking on doors of shelter after shelter if I'm a trans person in an emergency situation.

 

[Hank77]

What I'm not keen on is treating sexual assault and human trafficking survivors who might be triggered by the idea of sleeping in the same room as someone who is biologically male as if they are somehow bigots and oppressors instead of victims. I don't think it's reasonable to talk only about the needs of one oppressed group while completely ignoring a second one, and the fact that I see women who talk about this written off as hysterical and threatened with violence is really worrying on a number of different levels.

I completely agree, woman who have been abused have been severely traumatized.
Trans people and their supporters should understand this issue because trans people have been abused and severely traumatized as well and I think most of trans people do understand.
That's why I would be in favor of grants to homeless shelters to rearrange/separate room sleeping areas as well as separate bathrooms. Everyone should feel safe.

 

[FireDragon76]

Seems like certain human cultures have had a difficult time dealing with the fact that gender isnt 100% binary or completely aligned between body and psyche.

This problem seems particularly bad in Abrahamic faith cultures, but perhaps my understanding isnt broad enough.

Medieval Islamic societies had transgender individuals.

Mukhannathun - Wikipedia

 

[FireDragon76]

I completely agree, woman who have been abused have been severely traumatized.
Trans people and their supporters should understand this issue because trans people have been abused and severely traumatized as well and I think most of trans people do understand.
That's why I would be in favor of grants to homeless shelters to rearrange/separate room sleeping areas as well as separate bathrooms. Everyone should feel safe.

I've had friends that are lesbians, and friends that are trans, and the supposed hostility between the groups is more of an internet/academic fiction that the Right loves to use to try to change the conversation.

In reality, the lesbian woman I know is one of the least bigoted persons I have ever met and has nothing against transwomen.

 

[Hank77]

3) the shelter must provide a referral to a different shelter if they turn someone away.

Homeless people don't have access to transportation and to tell them they must go to another shelter that may be blocks and blocks away wouldn't be safe or healthy for them, especially in the winter months.

 

[Quartermaine]

The problem is more complicated - if Christian providers of services (or other religious providers) cease because they're forced to do something against their beliefs, even greater harm would be done. People of other beliefs can step up and fill the gaps and provide those services rather than demanding the few who are doing something conform to their beliefs.

If providers of a service no matter what religion can't set aside their prejudices then they have no business providing services.


There are providers what feel that serving certain racial minorities goes against their beliefs, should racists be allowed to discriminate if they claim its a matter of faith?

 

[Hank77]

I've had friends that are lesbians, and friends that are trans, and the supposed hostility between the groups is more of an internet/academic fiction that the Right loves to use to try to change the conversation.

In reality, the lesbian woman I know is one of the least bigoted persons I have ever met and has nothing against transwomen.

Nothing in my post made that suggestion so, please explain why you posted that to me, I'm missing your point.

 

[Quartermaine]

No it wouldn't. Being employed and being temporarily accepted into a homeless shelter aren't the same thing at all.

I don't know much about this case, and I wouldn't favor homeless shelter discrimination on the mere fact of someone being transgender, but it doesn't take any stretching to acknowledge the difference between being employed and being accepted into a homeless shelter. There are lots of shelters that are explicitly biased in favor of women, but that isn't sex discrimination under Title VII.

But refusing to accept someone into a homeless shelter because they are a minority IS discrimination under title VII

 

[FireDragon76]

Nothing in my post made that suggestion so, please explain why you posted that to me, I'm missing your point.

It wasn't about contradicting you necessarily, just augmenting what you said. Some people are trying to make this conversation about something else other than prejudice, pitting cisgender women vs. transgender women. And I was just pointing out that distinction is mostly academic.

 

[Silmarien]

I've had friends that are lesbians, and friends that are trans, and the supposed hostility between the groups is more of an internet/academic fiction that the Right loves to use to try to change the conversation.

In reality, the lesbian woman I know is one of the least bigoted persons I have ever met and has nothing against transwomen.

I would suggest reading what the actual radical feminists have to say instead of writing them off as some sort of right-wing fantasy. This is very much a reality, and you can find evidence of the conflict easily enough on radfem blogs.

There is bad behavior on both sides, but I don't think lesbians who complain about feeling pressured to sleep with trans-women are automatically bigots.

 

[Hank77]

It wasn't about contradicting you necessarily, just augmenting what you said. Some people are trying to make this conversation about something else other than prejudice, pitting cisgender women vs. transgender women. And I was just pointing out that distinction is mostly academic.

What exactly is all about prejudice? Separate sleeping areas and separate bathrooms?

 

[tbstor]

And we, as a society, should be OK with discrimination because "fixing it" would require that we allow the government to do what governments do (act on behalf of all the citizens), right?

Basically "discrimination" is the price we pay for freedom. (Until someone decides to discriminate against us! At which point it becomes intolerable and must be fixed, probably by government intervention.)

You're making some assumptions. You've assumed that your understanding of the role of government is universally recognized (it isn't). You've also assumed that the only way to combat discrimination is through government intervention (it isn't).

Discrimination isn't "the price we pay for freedom," discrimination just is freedom. You have the freedom to discriminate against and to associate with whomever you'd like.

 

[Rachel20]

If providers of a service no matter what religion can't set aside their prejudices then they have no business providing services.

It's hard to imagine, with all the homelessness in America, that anyone would be against the few charities there are simply because they don't fit some belief system.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Anecdotes don't make for good generalizations.

My post was not meant to be anecdotal.

 

[Hank77]

I would suggest reading what the actual radical feminists have to say instead of writing them off as some sort of right-wing fantasy. This is very much a reality, and you can find evidence of the conflict easily enough on radfem blogs.

There is bad behavior on both sides, but I don't think lesbians who complain about feeling pressured to sleep with trans-women are automatically bigots.

Oh, that's what @FireDragon76 is referring to. What's that got to do with shelters being comfortable (feeling safe) for both groups?
I think that's making it more complex than it needs to be. Can't all trans people just be treated like other people without embroiling them in controversies? There's nothing kind about doing that.

 

[FireDragon76]

What exactly is all about prejudice? Separate sleeping areas and separate bathrooms?

The language of the policy change is clear enough about what this is really about, giving liberty for the prejudices of religious institutions (who are taking public money) that consider transgender persons unclean and unworthy of help.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Oh, that's what @FireDragon76 is referring to. What's that got to do with shelters being comfortable (feeling safe) for both groups?
I think that's making it more complex than it needs to be. Can't all trans people just be treated like other people without embroiling them in controversies? There's nothing kind about doing that.

In homeless shelter situations, gender plays a part.And if they set apart trans spaces, it decreases the efficiency of the shelter especially if there is an overflow situation. I don't see any problem with trans females who do not still have their male genitals sleeping in the same area as biological females. But, is this what we are talking about?

 

[zippy2006]

But refusing to accept someone into a homeless shelter because they are a minority IS discrimination under title VII

If Title VII applied to homeless shelters--and there is no reason to believe it does--then sex discrimination in homeless shelters would be illegal. There is no reason to believe that Title VII allows discrimination based on sex but not minority status in homeless shelters. Futhermore, Title VII says nothing about "minority status" in the first place. You are wrong for so many reasons.