HUD rolls back protections on transgender individuals

[Silmarien]

Not wanting to have sex with people of a certain sex is about as far from ideology as it gets, and it isn't limited to lesbians. These trans arguments are one step removed from calling every non-bi sexual orientation ideological bigotry.

And @Silmarien, this is a perfect example of the way that transsexuals on the ground are sex-binary. These issues are at their root based on the inability of transsexuals to be accepted as one of the two sexes with legitimacy.

It should probably be pointed out that "transgender" and "transsexual" aren't the same thing. Transsexual refers to someone who has been through surgery, and is a term that should only be used if someone tells you to, since transgender people find it offensive. I'm not actually sure why (I think "transsexual" is a historical slur), but I do think that the distinction between transgender and transsexual is important and should be maintained.

In any case, I both do and don't agree with you, just due to the complexities of queer theory, but I'll reply through PM since I've gone off topic enough here for one day.

 

[zippy2006]

It should probably be pointed out that "transgender" and "transsexual" aren't the same thing. Transsexual refers to someone who has been through surgery, and is a term that should only be used if someone tells you to, since transgender people find it offensive. I'm not actually sure why (I think "transsexual" is a historical slur), but I do think that the distinction between transgender and transsexual is important and should be maintained.

Okay, good to know.

 

[FireDragon76]

It should probably be pointed out that "transgender" and "transsexual" aren't the same thing. Transsexual refers to someone who has been through surgery, and is a term that should only be used if someone tells you to, since transgender people find it offensive. I'm not actually sure why (I think "transsexual" is a historical slur), but I do think that the distinction between transgender and transsexual is important and should be maintained.

Transwomen want to be accepted as women, and having a qualification to that can be a kind of negation of their identity.

 

[FireDragon76]

Tell that to the women's prison inmates who were raped when the prison system stuck them with a transgender...

Lawsuit: Female Prisoner Says She Was Raped by Transgender Inmate

^^^ that was in Illinois

Seven sex attacks in women’s jails by transgender convicts | News | The Times

^^ that was in the UK but very easily could have happened here if we start letting men into women's prisons because they claim to be female.

Homeless shelters:

US — New York, New York. A woman was threatened with violence by a male resident of a women’s homeless shelter and when this was reported to the shelter director by another resident, she was told ‘be nice’.

Continue reading Woman in Homeless Shelter Threatened by Male, ‘Transgender’ Resident | Women Are Human. Read more at: Woman in Homeless Shelter Threatened by Male, ‘Transgender’ Resident

This is what your fighting for, for real women to have no where they can run to that is safe from violence against them by men.

I could easily cite similar anecdotes of women abusing other women or girls sexually, so I think this is a red herring as far as objections go.

 

[istodolez]

I have heard of biological women being raped by trans women in prison. So, I can see the liability if the shelter would allow a trans woman who still had their male sexual organs to be housed with biological women and a biological woman was raped by a trans. I agree that it is a complex situation.

This sounds so very "niche" as to beggar the imagination as to how common it is. I was rather under the impression that transwomen were NOT just dudes who want to hang where women hang so they can molest women more easily. But aren't most people still incarcerated at facilities in accordance to their gender "assigned at birth"? How are these transwomen who have not fully transitioned able to make it over to the women's prison for rape hours?

 

[Silmarien]

Transwomen want to be accepted as women, and having a qualification to that can be a kind of negation of their identity.

Yes, and this is why some transsexuals are opposed to self-identification. They see it as a negation of their own identity to collapse transgender and transsexual people into the same category.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, and this is why some transsexuals are opposed to self-identification. They see it as a negation of their own identity to collapse transgender and transsexual people into the same category.

"transgender" is a kind of supercategory that includes things such as transsexualism. But it also includes any kind of cross-gender or non-gender-binary behavior or identity, such as drag queens, crossdressers, or people that circle "other" on a questionaire.

Being transsexual doesn't have to involve genital surgery, just identification as the opposite sex and typically, a witness by one or more medical professionals that a person has transitioned their gender. In fact, in Italy several years ago (in a country that does not have gay marriage legally yet), in the case of the marriage of Alessia Cinquegrana (an Italian model), the Italian Supreme Court recognized that Italian law has to recognize transsexual marriages even if sex-reassignment surgery has not happened.

Marriage of Alessia Cinquegrana, Miss Trans 2014

 

[Silmarien]

"transgender" is a kind of supercategory that includes things such as transsexualism. But it also includes any kind of cross-gender or non-gender-binary behavior or identity, such as drag queens or crossdressers.

I don't think many drag queens identify as transgender. As far as I'm aware, they are "cis"-gender men who dress as women at times, primarily for theatrical reasons.

I also don't think that the transgender movement should be subsuming other groups that may or may not identify with it. If some transsexuals wish to maintain a separate identity, I'm not interested in erasing them. If they don't, they will probably identify as transgender.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think many drag queens identify as transgender. As far as I'm aware, they are "cis"-gender men who dress as women at times, primarily for theatrical reasons.

I also don't think that the transgender movement should be subsuming other groups that may or may not identify with it. If some transsexuals wish to maintain a separate identity, I'm not interested in erasing them. If they don't, they will probably identify as transgender.

"Transgender" is more of an academic term, whereas transsexualism is an older concept that is medical in nature.

I think some trans people believe alot in having medical gatekeepers to verify that a person has in fact undergone psychological counselling, changed their gender and lives as the opposite sex, and I'm not opposed to that system, particularly in sensitive circumstances such as what we are describing. What I am opposed to is intentionally misgendering someone who has gone through such a system and is legally identified as female, merely because a persons religion believes that biology determines gender.

 

[Silmarien]

"Transgender" is more of an academic term, whereas transsexualism is an older concept that is medical in nature.

I think some trans people believe alot in having medical gatekeepers to verify that a person has in fact undergone psychological counselling, changed their gender and lives as the opposite sex, and I'm not opposed to that system, particularly in sensitive circumstances such as what we are describing. What I am opposed to is intentionally misgendering someone who has gone through such a system and is legally identified as female, merely because a persons religion believes that biology determines gender.

I'm opposed to that too. My stance is that people can identify in whatever way they please, and should be referred to with their preferred pronouns, but that those medical gatekeepers should be required for legal determination.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

How are these transwomen who have not fully transitioned able to make it over to the women's prison for rape hours?

By lobbying to be moved "for safety".

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm opposed to that too. My stance is that people can identify in whatever way they please, and should be referred to with their preferred pronouns, but that those medical gatekeepers should be required for legal determination.

I don't think there's as much disagreement between us as was first assumed, then. I'm merely opposed to religious prejudice and ideology substituting for expertise that has been established for the better part of a half century in developed nations.

Transwomen that have undergone medical transition have been around for decades in the US and have made significant contributions to American society, and don't deserve to be relegated suddenly to pariah status because conservative Christians now have political power.

 

[stevil]

Seems utterly ridiculous for any Christian organization to turn anyone away that is in need. I can't see how they could possibly explain their reasoning.

Having a group actively seeking the right to discriminate and then actively carrying out that right puts them in a position of being a hate group.

Do Christian organisations have to be hate groups?
Do their religious beliefs force them to be this way or are they able to present themselves as nondiscriminatory with the ability to play nicely in a society of divergent people and groups?

 

[Hank77]

You still don't see it? I don't know how to explain it better. Say there is an overflow of biological females, but there are beds in the trans female area. The shelter has to decide to either turn the biological females away, even though there are beds, but in the trans female section. Or, they would have to evict traans femals in order to accommodate the biological ones. Now do you see?

I don't think those are the only answers when they have remodeled the shelter keeping these issues in mind.
But I think the easiest answer is that there is bound to be fewer trans women than others just concerning their portion of the homeless. If the overflow were from other women I'm pretty sure that there would be women who wouldn't mind staying with the trans ladies. It's better than being out on the street. Not all of them have been abused and not all of them will be fearful.
Anyway, I'm not an expert on this subject so I'll leave it at that. Your turn.

 

[zippy2006]

I'm merely opposed to religious prejudice and ideology substituting for expertise that has been established for the better part of a half century in developed nations.

This isn't a matter of expertise, it's just Christian religion vs. transgender religion.

 

[Hank77]

But aren't most people still incarcerated at facilities in accordance to their gender "assigned at birth"? How are these transwomen who have not fully transitioned able to make it over to the women's prison for rape hours?

This is only one that has happened in England, there are more.
Trans inmate admits prison sex offences

Transgender inmate accused of rape This is Logan Prison in IL
"Dr. Puga received information that Monroe threatened staff and other inmates," U.S. District Court Judge Nancy Rosenstengel wrote in a December injunction ordering the Department of Corrections to provide hormones to transgender inmates and cease making housing assignments based on genitalia or physical appearance. "Women at the facility filed complaints against Monroe under the Prison Rape Elimination Act; some were false but many were legitimate." Puga also testified that Monroe stopped taking hormones after arriving at Logan.

I wouldn't think that a transwoman would stop taking female hormones if they were truly a transwoman. I think these cases are outliers but they do exist and their victims do exist.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This isn't a matter of expertise, it's just Christian religion vs. transgender religion.

Medical science has a name for it, it's called gender dysphoria and is a mental health issue, not a religious topic.

The only issue with religion is that we believe in the TRUTH, and the truth is when you put biological MEN in women's shelters who have self confessed mental health issues you endanger the biological women in those facilities..

That's science... the science the radical left wants us all to pretend doesn't exist.

I'm all for helping those with mental health issues, appropriate to their condition... if they need help they need to seek it in a mental health care facility - not shelters built for other purposes.

 

[FireDragon76]

This isn't a matter of expertise, it's just Christian religion vs. transgender religion.

Being trans is not a religion. Transpeople belong to all sorts of religions, including Christianity. They also can belong to no religion.

 

[Hank77]

The only issue with religion is that we believe in the TRUTH, and the truth is when you put biological MEN in women's shelters who have self confessed mental health issues you endanger the biological women in those facilities..

Let me get this straight.
You believe that transgender women have a mental disorder called gender dysphoria.
You also believe that these people because they have a man's biological body they will rape women even though they believe they are a woman trapped in a man's body.
Is that correct?
I'm not argueing with you, I just want to know if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

[FireDragon76]

Having a group actively seeking the right to discriminate and then actively carrying out that right puts them in a position of being a hate group.

Do Christian organisations have to be hate groups?
Do their religious beliefs force them to be this way or are they able to present themselves as nondiscriminatory with the ability to play nicely in a society of divergent people and groups?

Some religious groups obviously do teach animus for groups that aren't like them, or that don't live according to their edicts. That's as old as religion itself, dating back to the dawn of civilization.

In fairness, many Christian churches don't have anything against helping trans people and supporting them. Several denominations in the US have pastors and clergy that are trans, in fact, in this country. It's mostly just white evangelicals and conservative blacks that have problems with gay and trans people.

Prior to the 1970's and 1980's, extreme intolerant religion was rarer in the US, as larger percentages of people belonged to moderate churches that had moderate views on social issues. But those churches declined in numbers and people joined churches that focused more on otherworldly salvation and they didn't talk about social justice, fairness, or love as much as they did in the past.