HUD rolls back protections on transgender individuals

FireDragon76

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tbstor

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Trump Administration to Allow Taxpayer-Funded Shelter Providers to Ban Homeless Transgender People, Because Jesus

The Christian right are truly tone deaf if they think fighting for their right to make vulnerable people homeless on the streets during a pandemic is any kind of demonstration of "love".
Legally, the issue here is the fact that these shelters are tax-funded. Private discrimination, while under attack in this country, should be fully permissible. Situations like this will inevitably arise when the government has its fingers in too many pies.
 
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FireDragon76

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Legally, the issue here is the fact that these shelters are tax-funded. Private discrimination, while under attack in this country, should be fully permissible. Situations like this will inevitably arise when the government has its fingers in too many pies.

I don't see how this can be considered Constitutional, given that the Supreme Court recently ruled that gays and trans individuals are entitled to the same workplace protections as everybody else. It would take alot of stretching of logic to say that it's OK to discriminate against gay and trans people, and take public dollars to do so, merely because it's an issue of housing vs. employment.
 
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The problem is more complicated - if Christian providers of services (or other religious providers) cease because they're forced to do something against their beliefs, even greater harm would be done. People of other beliefs can step up and fill the gaps and provide those services rather than demanding the few who are doing something conform to their beliefs.
 
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zippy2006

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It would take alot of stretching of logic to say that it's OK to discriminate against gay and trans people, and take public dollars to do so, merely because it's an issue of housing vs. employment.

No it wouldn't. Being employed and being temporarily accepted into a homeless shelter aren't the same thing at all.

I don't know much about this case, and I wouldn't favor homeless shelter discrimination on the mere fact of someone being transgender, but it doesn't take any stretching to acknowledge the difference between being employed and being accepted into a homeless shelter. There are lots of shelters that are explicitly biased in favor of women, but that isn't sex discrimination under Title VII.
 
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durangodawood

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The problem is more complicated - if Christian providers of services (or other religious providers) cease because they're forced to do something against their beliefs, even greater harm would be done. People of other beliefs can step up and fill the gaps and provide those services rather than demanding the few who are doing something conform to their beliefs.
Just the idea that a Christian shelter would turn a trans person out "because of their beliefs" is pretty damning.
 
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grasping the after wind

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grasping the after wind

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Just the idea that a Christian shelter would turn a trans person out "because of their beliefs" is pretty damning.

Seems utterly ridiculous for any Christian organization to turn anyone away that is in need. I can't see how they could possibly explain their reasoning.
 
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FireDragon76

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No it wouldn't. Being employed and being temporarily accepted into a homeless shelter aren't the same thing at all.

I don't know much about this case, and I wouldn't favor homeless shelter discrimination on the mere fact of someone being transgender, but it doesn't take any stretching to acknowledge the difference between being employed and being accepted into a homeless shelter. There are lots of shelters that are explicitly biased in favor of women, but that isn't sex discrimination under Title VII.

I don't see the issue with having transwomen at women's shelters, I really don't. Especially if somehow this is a "religious" issue, which doesn't make sense.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I don't see the issue with having transwomen at women's shelters, I really don't. Especially if somehow this is a "religious" issue, which doesn't make sense.

I wasn't aware that homeless shelters were segregated by sex. Never been homeless myself so I haven't been to one. If I had been homeless and told I was not allowed in Y shelter as Y shelter was for females and that I must go to X shelter because I was a male, then I would go to X shelter and be quite happy to be out of the elements and having a place to stay. Is there a problem with offering a homeless male a place in a shelter?
 
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Silmarien

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This is interesting. Looking at the actual rule, there seem to be several underlying concerns: ensuring that single-sex or sex-segregated facilities have the right to remain single-sex or sex-segregated (if that is their desire), ensuring that victims of domestic abuse, human trafficking, or related crimes have the right to not be housed with people of a different biological sex if they are uncomfortable with it, and then the infamous "my freedom of religion allows me to discriminate against anyone I disapprove of" nonsense.

The third aspect is probably unconstitutional at this point (and if it's not, it should be). The other aspects are a much thornier issue involving a conflict between the rights of two different oppressed minority groups to feel safe.

I don't see the issue with having transwomen at women's shelters, I really don't. Especially if somehow this is a "religious" issue, which doesn't make sense.

It's not a religious issue. There are genuine tensions between the transgender movement and various parts of the feminist movement, and it's not unusual for the feminists to be threatened with violence and rape. I would have no problem allowing post-op trans-women at women's shelters, but given the virulent misogyny and entitlement to sexual access to women I see within certain parts of trans-activism (see, for example, the term "cotton ceiling"), I do have concerns about self-identification being used as the criterion. I think there needs to be a better solution than overriding the rights of one group entirely.
 
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Hank77

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The problem is more complicated - if Christian providers of services (or other religious providers) cease because they're forced to do something against their beliefs, even greater harm would be done. People of other beliefs can step up and fill the gaps and provide those services rather than demanding the few who are doing something conform to their beliefs.
They would just have to provide their own funding and not take tax-payer funding.
There are a lot of things that I will take the side of the Christian right, but not this one.
If shelters need to rearrange their sleeping accommodations and bathrooms then I'm all for grants to help them do that.

The Good Samaritan didn't ask the naked man in the ditch what religion he was or what his sexual orientation was, he just took care of him.
 
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Hank77

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I don't see the issue with having transwomen at women's shelters, I really don't. Especially if somehow this is a "religious" issue, which doesn't make sense.
Trump is campaigning, pandering to a specific part of his base.
 
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jgarden

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I don't see how this can be considered Constitutional, given that the Supreme Court recently ruled that gays and trans individuals are entitled to the same workplace protections as everybody else. It would take alot of stretching of logic to say that it's OK to discriminate against gay and trans people, and take public dollars to do so, merely because it's an issue of housing vs. employment.
The Trump Administration already knows that this is unconstitutional, but its nothing more than a cynical strategy to shore up their conservative Christian base for the 2020 Election - with the knowledge that a Supreme Court decision on the matter will take years!
 
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FireDragon76

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I wasn't aware that homeless shelters were segregated by sex. Never been homeless myself so I haven't been to one. If I had been homeless and told I was not allowed in Y shelter as Y shelter was for females and that I must go to X shelter because I was a male, then I would go to X shelter and be quite happy to be out of the elements and having a place to stay. Is there a problem with offering a homeless male a place in a shelter?

If the subject doesn't identify as a male, isn't socially accepted as a male, then yes, there is a problem.

This is interesting. Looking at the actual rule, there seem to be several underlying concerns: ensuring that single-sex or sex-segregated facilities have the right to remain single-sex or sex-segregated (if that is their desire), ensuring that victims of domestic abuse, human trafficking, or related crimes have the right to not be housed with people of a different biological sex if they are uncomfortable with it, and then the infamous "my freedom of religion allows me to discriminate against anyone I disapprove of" nonsense.

The third aspect is probably unconstitutional at this point (and if it's not, it should be). The other aspects are a much thornier issue involving a conflict between the rights of two different oppressed minority groups to feel safe.



It's not a religious issue. There are genuine tensions between the transgender movement and various parts of the feminist movement, and it's not unusual for the feminists to be threatened with violence and rape. I would have no problem allowing post-op trans-women at women's shelters, but given the virulent misogyny and entitlement to sexual access to women I see within certain parts of trans-activism (see, for example, the term "cotton ceiling"), I do have concerns about self-identification being used as the criterion. I think there needs to be a better solution than overriding the rights of one group entirely.

Most transwomen I have met are accepted as women, so I don't see how its humane to exclude them from womens shelters just because of their genitals.
 
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FireDragon76

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Trump is campaigning, pandering to a specific part of his base.

The bit that has a problem with gender minorities...

I have been following you for years and it's good to see some folks in the Christian community that can see through this nonsense consistently and realized the faux issues and objections raised are mostly just red herrings convering over bigotry.
 
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Most transwomen I have met are accepted as women, so I don't see how its humane to exclude them from womens shelters just because of their genitals.

Because it's specifically at women's shelters where you might find victims of human trafficking, domestic abuse, or related crimes who might feel unsafe being housed with people with male genitalia.

I think requiring cities to have women's shelters that are specifically for biological women, and other women's shelters that focus on gender identity instead, rather than having them all operate one way or the other, might be the best solution.
 
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