HUD rolls back protections on transgender individuals

[rjs330]

I don't see the issue with having transwomen at women's shelters, I really don't. Especially if somehow this is a "religious" issue, which doesn't make sense.

I do believe that it is entirely appropriate to not allow men who identify as women to be allowed at an all women shelter and vice versa unless the person has undergone the surgery to become the sex they desired to be.

If you are a female by biology and are still one because you haven't actually transformed then stay out of the make only shelters.

There are many shelters around that have no such restrictions. We have one in my town. Male or female can stay there. If you are open to both sexes there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[rjs330]

If providers of a service no matter what religion can't set aside their prejudices then they have no business providing services.


There are providers what feel that serving certain racial minorities goes against their beliefs, should racists be allowed to discriminate if they claim its a matter of faith?

No one does that. It's a moot point. We are talking about biology and science. Not thoughts and feelings.
If you are a biological woman then by all means go to a women's shelter because it's for you. Unless of course you are saying there shouldn't be any women's shelters.

Women's shelters can discriminate against menband vice versa. So certain discriminations are allowed. A black man cannot be dracriminated against in a men's shelter. There are not such things as "white only" shelters.

 

[Silmarien]

Oh, that's what @FireDragon76 is referring to. What's that got to do with shelters being comfortable (feeling safe) for both groups?
I think that's making it more complex than it needs to be. Can't all trans people just be treated like other people without embroiling them in controversies? There's nothing kind about doing that.

I don't know why @FireDragon76 mentioned it, since it wasn't the topic, but I was pointing out what the conflict between some lesbians and some transgender women actually involved. There have been some ugly controversies involving terms like "cotton ceiling," (the difficulty trans-women face in finding lesbian partners), which a number of lesbians and feminists in general find really demeaning. The tensions between the two groups isn't really a conservative fantasy--all you have to do is look at a radical feminist blog to find it. It's just not well known except in those circles, since we're talking about marginalized communities with low visibility.

It is a two sided problem, though, since a lot of the radical feminists can be pretty toxic themselves, but I didn't really like the insinuation that none of this is happening outside of the imagination of conservative men. The problem is that aside from J.K. Rowling, none of the feminists who have concerns with self-identification have much of a voice unless conservatives publicize their thoughts, because they've otherwise been excluded from the conversation.

 

[Hank77]

I don't see any problem with trans females who do not still have their male genitals sleeping in the same area as biological females.

It would be horribly humiliating for trans people to be inspected to see who does and doesn't have male genitals. I can't see anyone even wanting to do that.

There may be minimum efficiency but I can't think of any.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't know why @FireDragon76 mentioned it, since it wasn't the topic, but I was pointing out what the conflict between some lesbians and some transgender women actually involved. There have been some ugly controversies involving terms like "cotton ceiling," (the difficulty trans-women face in finding lesbian partners), which a number of lesbians and feminists in general find really demeaning. The tensions between the two groups isn't really a conservative fantasy--all you have to do is look at a radical feminist blog to find it. It's just not well known except in those circles, since we're talking about marginalized communities with low visibility.

"Radical feminist" doesn't equal the lived experiences of all lesbians, or even a typical one. Most lesbians I have known are non-ideological.

Whether lesbians would have sex with a transperson or not ultimately comes down to a matter of personal attraction, which doesn't fit into perfectly neat little categories in the real world.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

It would be horribly humiliating for trans people to be inspected to see who does and doesn't have male genitals. I can't see anyone even wanting to do that.

That is what makes it a complex situation.

 

[FireDragon76]

It would be horribly humiliating for trans people to be inspected to see who does and doesn't have male genitals. I can't see anyone even wanting to do that.

There may be minimum efficiency but I can't think of any.

What I find fascinating in all this is the assumption that a person who is trans can't also be an abuse survivor, which unfortunately is not all that rare.

 

[Silmarien]

"Radical feminist" doesn't equal the lived experiences of all lesbians, or even a typical one. Most lesbians I have known are non-ideological.

Is this the "if they don't agree with me, they're not authentic, and so should be ignored" spiel?

Whether lesbians would have sex with a transperson or not ultimately comes down to a matter of personal attraction, which doesn't fit into perfectly neat little categories in the real world.

Nobody should feel pressured into having sex with someone to avoid looking like a bigot.

 

[FireDragon76]

Nobody should feel pressured into having sex with someone to avoid looking like a bigot.

I don't think that's been seriously argued by many. What some people are arguing is that saying "I would never have sex with a transwoman" is not exactly open-minded, and in some cases it is a kind of soft-peddaled transphobia/homophobia.

The discussions I've seen it happen in, BTW, involve heterosexual men moreso.

 

[Silmarien]

I don't think that's been seriously argued by many. What some people are arguing is that saying "I would never have sex with a transwoman" is not exactly open-minded, and in some cases it is a kind of soft-peddaled transphobia/homophobia.

The discussions I've seen it happen in, BTW, involve heterosexual men moreso.

Then I would really suggest paying more attention to the discussions that have been going on within the feminist community before implying that it's a non-issue that has been invented by conservatives.

The problem is that there is a long history of lesbians being told that they're not being open-minded for not wanting to have sex with people who are biological males, and that history includes stuff like corrective rape. The fact that lesbian women are being told that they need to be more open-minded and actually accept partners with male genitalia is frankly a version of conversion therapy.

 

[Hank77]

That is what makes it a complex situation.

Trans people know who is really trans, they all live on the street together if they are homeless. So I think they would all be fine staying with each other as trans women.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

The discussions I've seen it happen in, BTW, involve heterosexual men moreso.

Yeah, because heterosexual men see having sex wit a trans female as having sex with another man.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

The problem is that there is a long history of lesbians being told that they're not being open-minded for not wanting to have sex with people who are biological males, and that history includes stuff like corrective rape. The fact that lesbian women are being told that they need to be more open-minded and actually accept partners with male genitalia is frankly a version of conversion therapy.

Well of course if lesbians detest having sex with men, naturally(psychologically) they see having sex with a trans female that still has male genitalia as having sex with a man. That isn't hard to understand.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Trans people know who is really trans, they all live on the street together if they are homeless. So I think they would all be fine staying with each other as trans women.

Yes, they would be fine, but it would cause a liability problem for shelters if they were housed with biological females. And it would cause logistical problems for shelters if they segregated the two groups.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Trump Administration to Allow Taxpayer-Funded Shelter Providers to Ban Homeless Transgender People, Because Jesus

The Christian right are truly tone deaf if they think fighting for their right to make vulnerable people homeless on the streets during a pandemic is any kind of demonstration of "love".

This would allow a battered woman's shelter to deny entry to a biological male, for instance, in the interest of keeping the women and the children staying at the shelter safe, if they feel it needs to be done....

Forcing women's shelters to take in men who "identify" as women opens up real women to very real abuse, in places they should be safe...

There is good reason we have traditionally segregated the genders in institutional settings and turning a blind eye to women being raped and abused is criminal, which is what many would love to do it seems, by forcing women's shelters to take in men.

 

[Hank77]

And it would cause logistical problems for shelters if they segregated the two groups.

?

 

[FireDragon76]

This would allow a battered woman's shelter to deny entry to a biological male, for instance, in the interest of keeping the women and the children staying at the shelter safe, if they feel it needs to be done....

Forcing women's shelters to take in men who "identify" as women opens up real women to very real abuse, in places they should be safe...

There is good reason we have traditionally segregated the genders in institutional settings and turning a blind eye to women being raped and abused is criminal, which is what many would love to do it seems, by forcing women's shelters to take in men.

Transwomen aren't inherently abusive any more than biological women... so, no.

Look, I don't think a transwoman goes to a woman's shelter for the purposes of finding a date or a booty call. That's just not credible.

We can always find a bizarre anecdote, but anecdotes make for poor generalizations.

 

[zippy2006]

"Radical feminist" doesn't equal the lived experiences of all lesbians, or even a typical one. Most lesbians I have known are non-ideological.

What some people are arguing is that saying "I would never have sex with a transwoman" is not exactly open-minded, and in some cases it is a kind of soft-peddaled transphobia/homophobia.

Not wanting to have sex with people of a certain sex is about as far from ideology as it gets, and it isn't limited to lesbians. These trans arguments are one step removed from calling every non-bi sexual orientation ideological bigotry.

And @Silmarien, this is a perfect example of the way that transsexuals on the ground are sex-binary. These issues are at their root based on the inability of transsexuals to be accepted as one of the two sexes with legitimacy.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

?

You still don't see it? I don't know how to explain it better. Say there is an overflow of biological females, but there are beds in the trans female area. The shelter has to decide to either turn the biological females away, even though there are beds, but in the trans female section. Or, they would have to evict traans femals in order to accommodate the biological ones. Now do you see?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Transwomen aren't inherently abusive any more than biological women... so, no.

Look, I don't think a transwoman goes to a woman's shelter for the purposes of finding a date or a booty call. That's just not credible.

We can always find a bizarre anecdote, but anecdotes make for poor generalizations.

Tell that to the women's prison inmates who were raped when the prison system stuck them with a transgender...

Lawsuit: Female Prisoner Says She Was Raped by Transgender Inmate

^^^ that was in Illinois

Seven sex attacks in women’s jails by transgender convicts | News | The Times

^^ that was in the UK but very easily could have happened here if we start letting men into women's prisons because they claim to be female.

Homeless shelters:

US — New York, New York. A woman was threatened with violence by a male resident of a women’s homeless shelter and when this was reported to the shelter director by another resident, she was told ‘be nice’.

Continue reading Woman in Homeless Shelter Threatened by Male, ‘Transgender’ Resident | Women Are Human. Read more at: Woman in Homeless Shelter Threatened by Male, ‘Transgender’ Resident

This is what your fighting for, for real women to have no where they can run to that is safe from violence against them by men.