How would this sinner be saved, without works.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 27, 2018

food4thought said:
This is your opinion, not a fact. The nature of this passage has been debated for centuries. We will not resolve it here, so I suggest we move on.

Again, interpretation. I won't bother debating what greater minds than ours have not been able to resolve. I have my interpretation, you have yours.

Classic slippery slope argument. The fact is that we all rely upon God's grace when we sin. Look at the greatest commandment: Matthew 22:37 NASB "And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'" What does keeping this commandment look like? In order to love Him with all our heart, we must have our hearts set upon Him at all times, never changing focus. Same with the soul, same with the mind. Jesus was making a point beyond the surface with these commandments (love the LORD, love your neighbor as yourself), and the point was that these commandments are impossible to keep perfectly. EVERYBODY breaks them constantly, even the most holy among us, including you (if you are honest with yourself). This is not antinomianism, it is reality.

Of course we need to confess and repent! But sinning once does not lose us our salvation. According to 1 John 3:9 those who practice sin are not saved (we can debate all day long whether they were ever saved to no avail, as others have... I am unsure). Adam and Eve is a special case, but I submit to you that nowhere does it say they lost their salvation, only their fellowship.

The younger brother is clearly lost to begin with. The whole thing about children being saved and then losing their salvation when they sin ignores Romans 5:18, which says that "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men". This clearly indicates that we are born lost because of Adam's transgression (children routinely die). I do believe that God does not impute sin to those who have not reached the age of accountability, and at the very least the children of believers are regarded as clean by God (1 Corinthians 7:14), but children are not "saved" in the same way we are, in that they don't have the indwelling Spirit, and then lose the Spirit when they sin. And neither do we as adults (John 10:28-29).

First, where does it say the sinner is not still in the faith? Second, James is one of the first NT books written and in the early church God took sin seriously (see Acts 5:1-11). People died for their sin, and physical death is what James has in view there.

Denying is not the same as disbelief, although it may follow from unbelief. We have to remember that this was written during a time of intense persecution, and the temptation to deny Jesus and return to "normal" life was intense. Paul was saying that if we don't feel our faith measures up, it does not matter as long as we don't renounce our faith. If we have faith as a mustard seed we are saved.

How does your belief in justifying grievous sin work as a real world scenario? Does that mean we can get away with doing one murder or really bad evil like David? For if he was saved while he murdered then that means you are saying people can murder and be saved while doing so. How can God reward evil actions like that? Is not God righteous? Does not God’s Word say to the faithful servant the following words?

“His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”‭‭ (Matthew 25:21).

If what you teach is true then this verse should say,

“The lord said unto him, Well done, thou has not been faithful but you trusted in my blood for salvation, enter thou into the joy of thy own self interests.”

But the Bible does not say that.

food4thought · Oct 27, 2018

Jason0047 said:
1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 go together because they are a part of the false gnostic belief that John was warning the brethren about. For John says, "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." (1 John 2:26). So I will address them together.

I disagree about that... they should be looked upon as discussing current (verse 8) and past (verse 10) experience.

My Comment on 1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:10:

Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context.

Always.

1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned.

Yes it does.

1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10).

No it doesn't... verse 10 is NOT modifying verse 8, it is complimenting it.

Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief.

Excellent insight. Gnosticism in it's beginning form was a big opponent to the gospel when John was writing.

Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist).

Agreed. BTW, I am unsure of OSAS, and lean towards the possibility of a believer leaving their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).

1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

Does it say in 1 John 2:3-4 that the person who breaks a commandment is damned? NO!!! In the context of:

1 John 3:4-6 ESV Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (5) You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. (6) No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

What John is saying in the context of the whole book is that a person who practices unrepentant habitual sin does not know God. UNREPENTANT... HABITUAL.. SIN. Sinning is something we all do (remember what the two greatest commandments teach), and does not cost us our salvation every time we sin!!! If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them.

God's wrath has been poured out on Christ so it would not have to be poured out on those who trust in Him. Of course, those who trust in Him will demonstrate that truth through living out their faith by doing righteousness (imperfectly, but striving towards the goal).

This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus.

I agree with them on that point. All I would add is that belief is not enough... the demons believe, and tremble. There must be good works that follow salvation in a person who has true, saving faith.

In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).

No, but it's straightforward meaning is just what it says... if we have no sin.

Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them.

Ok.

Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus.

That is not what I was taught at all (I once believed in OSAS). This is a straw man. OSAS believe that their sin is real, but their sin has been paid for by the blood of Christ. If our sins are not forgiven us for Christ's sake, then Christ died in vain, we are still in our sins, and everyone from Adam on is lost.

In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

As for 1 John 1:9:

Nowhere does 1 John 1:9 teach that this is to be the every day life of the believer their whole lives.

On the contrary, according to Robertson's Word Pictures (a commentary that gives an in depth look at the Greek words of the NT):

If we confess (ean homologōmen). Third-class condition again with ean and present active subjunctive of homologeō, “if we keep on confessing.” Confession of sin to God and to one another (Jas_5:16) is urged throughout the N.T. from John the Baptist (Mar_1:5) on.

If we "keep on confessing" our sins, we are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

In fact, we know that is not the case because 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary on 1 John 1:7:

"It is significant that John talked of walking in the light, rather than according to the light. To walk according to the light would require sinless perfection and would make fellowship with God impossible for sinful humans. To walk in it, however, suggests instead openness and responsiveness to the light. John did not think of Christians as sinless, even though they are walking in the light, as is made clear in the last part of this verse. For John added that the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from every sin."

Walking in the light is loving your brother (See 1 John 2:9-10).

The two are not equivalent. Loving your brother is ONE THING that a person who is walking in the light does, because he/she recognizes their own sinfulness revealed by the light, and therefore humbly forgives others their sins.

Paul says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10). So keeping God's commandments is the same as "walking" in the phrase "walking in the light" in 1 John 1:7.

I don't know how you got there from those passages. I agree that loving your neighbor sums up the Law with regard to our relationship to others, but a good portion of the moral Law is directed at our relationship to God, as well (Love God, no other gods, etc.). Keeping the commandments is not the equivalent of walking in the light, it is just something that those who walk in the light tend to do.

It means we have to walk uprightly and obey God's commandments in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin.

No. According to the NT, we must have faith in Jesus Christ, in His substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and that we must confess Jesus as Lord and call on His name (Romans 10:5-13). This results in salvation/justification, and the good works naturally follow from a regenerate heart.

For 1 John 2:4 says that person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments (can just be only one) they are a liar and the truth is not in them. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (See Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10 and read it, you would discover that the King of the Ninevites told his people to do two very important things.

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance, seeking forgiveness with GOD).
(b) Forsake their evil ways (i.e. Which is the Fruits of Repentance).

We learn that when GOD had seen the Ninevites had turned from their evil ways, THAT was the turning point whereby GOD had decided to no longer bring wrath upon them. They needed to also forsake their evil ways. A person abiding in one sin is still abiding in evil. A person justifying one horrible sin is no different than a person who is justifying many. Remember, Jesus said that if we only look upon a woman in lust, it is enough for us to potentially be cast bodily into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Matthew 6:15 says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. Lusting in one's heart is one sin that condemn us, and unforgiveness is one sin that can condemn us. John tell us to "sin not" in 1 John 2:1, and Jesus tells us two people to "sin no more." in John 5:14, and John 8:11. So 1 John 1:9 is not a mere paying of lip service on a daily or weekly basis our whole lives. There has to be a point whereby we (believers) will walk uprightly in regards to grievous sin (that leads to spiritual death).

I have no problem with most of that, but if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we abide in sin (keep on sinning/habitual sin), that is evidence that we may not be saved, but only God knows when that person might be able to overcome the sin. If we struggle against our sin, if we hunger for holiness, and strive for it, that is evidence that we are saved. Note that Jesus said: "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled" (Matthew 5:6)… He did not say blessed are they who are righteous. No one is sinless at any given moment. We all stumble in many ways (you never did address that quote from James). Only continuing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ justifies us, and that faith leads us to strive for holiness, or it is no faith at all.

food4thought · Oct 27, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Here is the Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

And which part of what I said are all these Scriptures directed against? I said an awful lot, and it took me time to respond carefully to what you said... please respond in kind

food4thought · Oct 27, 2018

Jason0047 said:
How does your belief in justifying grievous sin work as a real world scenario?

I do not justify ANY sin. I just say that ANY sinner can be justified by faith in Jesus Christ, which leads us to repentance from our sins, whatever they may be.

Does that mean we can get away with doing one murder or really bad evil like David? For if he was saved while he murdered then that means you are saying people can murder and be saved while doing so.

Yes, even saved people are still capable of doing evil. If it is habitual sin, that is a different story.

How can God reward evil actions like that?

God is not rewarding people for their evil, He is rewarding them for their faith which leads to repentance and holiness. How is it different for some one to murder after they are saved verses someone who murders before they are saved? Both committed the same evil deed they knew was wrong. God poured His wrath for all sin on Christ.

Is not God righteous?

Perfectly so. And holy. And just. And merciful. And loving. And compassionate. This is why the gospel is so perfect, it balances all of God's attributes perfectly. Remember Romans 3:21-26.

Does not God’s Word say to the faithful servant the following words?

“His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”‭‭ (Matthew 25:21).

If what you teach is true then this verse should say,

“The lord said unto him, Well done, thou has not been faithful but you trusted in my blood for salvation, enter thou into the joy of thy own self interests.”

So, according to you, we must walk without sin in order to be saved? Even one grievous sin makes us unsaved? What about Peter (Galatians 2:11-14)? Was he lost? The Scripture says he stood condemned for his hypocrisy.

But the Bible does not say that.

No, it doesn't. But it also doesn't say what you are saying...

Rescued One · Oct 27, 2018

Serious sins are committed by people who DON'T LOVE CHRIST; they live after the flesh; they walk in darkness. They don't all commit the same sins; there are degrees of punishment.

FACT #1:
John 14
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

FACT #2:
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Rescued One · Oct 27, 2018

Faith is a gift; not a reward.

Rescued One · Oct 27, 2018

Jason0047 said:
...“The lord said unto him, Well done, thou has not been faithful but you trusted in my blood for salvation, enter thou into the joy of thy own self interests.”

But the Bible does not say that.

I agree 100%.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 27, 2018

food4thought said:
I disagree about that... they should be looked upon as discussing current (verse 8) and past (verse 10) experience.

Always.

Yes it does.

No it doesn't... verse 10 is NOT modifying verse 8, it is complimenting it.

Well, I am not a grammar teacher or expert. Sometimes words can be imprecise to convey our thoughts. I apologize if my words were not as clear for you. What my words were not suggesting exactly what you are saying regards to 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 (with the whole modifier thingy in it being an adverb; That is not what I was saying). I believe the two verses are related when I say "1 John 1:10 moves 1 John 1:8 into a past declaration." Maybe I should not have said it like that because it is not grammatically correct (Note: I updated my post to be a little clearer now on this point). But for your information: I am not saying 1 John 1:10 is an adverb of 1 John 1:8.

1 John 1:8 says, "if we say we have no sin." 1 John 1:10 says, if we say we have not sinned. One is talking about present sin and the other is talking about past sin. Both are a denial of sin (However which way you want to slice it). One is speaking present tense. The other past tense. They are related or connected or in the same topic of discussion.

The gnostics did not believe sin existed whatsoever. So they would say that sin did not exist for them in the present or the past. Christian Scientists believe sin is an illusion and is not real. OSAS Proponents or Non-OSAS sin and still be saved type believers hold to the view that Jesus paid for their present and future sin. They believe confession of sin does not actually forgive sin. Yet.... Yet.... yet...... yet.... that is what 1 John 1:9 SAYS. It is says... if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the Christian Scientist or anyone who says they can commit grievous sin (that leads to spiritual death) and they can still be saved while doing so. Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. See, my friend.... there is a HUGE difference between a believer stumbling with them knowing that their grievous sin separates them from GOD unless they repent vs. say someone who just pays lip service in saying they are sorry over a sin that is already forgiven.

If all sins are paid for in the future, then I am not going to be so sorrowful over sin because it is paid for and it makes light of the transgression of sin. Jesus does not pay for future sin. That would make a person think sin is not all that big of deal and we can just sin to high heaven and not worry about it. For the moment a person thinks they are saved while commiting one sin, they will then start to commit more sins. It does not matter if you say they must repent later and forsake it. Just saying that a person is saved while they commit a grievous sin is enough to have a person to commit sin and then pay lip service as if all that is required. They can plan to sin and then just confess it. That is not a Godly sorrow that Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians 7:10. This is with the understanding that you believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder. I say this because for me: There is nothing more wrong to say one is saved while committing any sin. It is justifying a little bit of evil. God cannot agree with a believer in getting away with doing sin even for a little while. It does not work like that. Well, that is if you believe David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. There would be no need for Him to repent or confess his sins if he was forgiven already.

"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).

savedthroughgrace · Oct 27, 2018

Jason,

Let me start by saying that I believe that we as believers can sin and break fellowship with God. I believe as 1 John 1:9 says, we should confess our sins to receive forgiveness and be cleansed from unrighteousness. I believe that if a believer commits a sin and confesses and repents, then they are saved. I believe that by God's grace, through our faith we are saved and that true saving faith produces works. I agree to your point that we shouldn't sin and assume that we can sin now and ask for forgiveness later. That would be trying to live of the world, while also living for Christ. The bible is clear that we cannot do that. I have to believe, however, that Christian CAN and will commits heinous sins. I have done so. I "fought" different forms of sexual sin for a long time. I say "fought" because I never really realized how severe my sin was and I never turned it over to Christ. I just said, this is wrong and I shouldn't do it, I would stop for a while and it would happen. In my case it wasn't until I committed adultery that I realized how far I had been straying. I believe the Holy Spirit convicted me and through prayer and bible reading I learned how I needed to get my life in Christ back. Through confession to God, my wife, close friends, and repentance of all sexual sin. I would love to hear if you agree or disagree with my assessment of my own situation. Are you saying that I am beyond saving? Is anyone beyond saving? If a believer entertains sin for a season are they able to truly repent? I would also like to question you on one point. It seems you reference "grievous" and "serious" sin in regards to losing fellowship. What qualifies as such? Is our salvation secure while in non-serious sin?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 27, 2018

food4thought said:
I disagree about that... they should be looked upon as discussing current (verse 8) and past (verse 10) experience.

Always.

Yes it does.

No it doesn't... verse 10 is NOT modifying verse 8, it is complimenting it.

Excellent insight. Gnosticism in it's beginning form was a big opponent to the gospel when John was writing.

Agreed. BTW, I am unsure of OSAS, and lean towards the possibility of a believer leaving their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Does it say in 1 John 2:3-4 that the person who breaks a commandment is damned? NO!!! In the context of:

1 John 3:4-6 ESV Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (5) You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. (6) No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

What John is saying in the context of the whole book is that a person who practices unrepentant habitual sin does not know God. UNREPENTANT... HABITUAL.. SIN. Sinning is something we all do (remember what the two greatest commandments teach), and does not cost us our salvation every time we sin!!! If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God's wrath has been poured out on Christ so it would not have to be poured out on those who trust in Him. Of course, those who trust in Him will demonstrate that truth through living out their faith by doing righteousness (imperfectly, but striving towards the goal).

I agree with them on that point. All I would add is that belief is not enough... the demons believe, and tremble. There must be good works that follow salvation in a person who has true, saving faith.

No, but it's straightforward meaning is just what it says... if we have no sin.

Ok.

That is not what I was taught at all (I once believed in OSAS). This is a straw man. OSAS believe that their sin is real, but their sin has been paid for by the blood of Christ. If our sins are not forgiven us for Christ's sake, then Christ died in vain, we are still in our sins, and everyone from Adam on is lost.

On the contrary, according to Robertson's Word Pictures (a commentary that gives an in depth look at the Greek words of the NT):

If we confess (ean homologōmen). Third-class condition again with ean and present active subjunctive of homologeō, “if we keep on confessing.” Confession of sin to God and to one another (Jas_5:16) is urged throughout the N.T. from John the Baptist (Mar_1:5) on.

If we "keep on confessing" our sins, we are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary on 1 John 1:7:

"It is significant that John talked of walking in the light, rather than according to the light. To walk according to the light would require sinless perfection and would make fellowship with God impossible for sinful humans. To walk in it, however, suggests instead openness and responsiveness to the light. John did not think of Christians as sinless, even though they are walking in the light, as is made clear in the last part of this verse. For John added that the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from every sin."

The two are not equivalent. Loving your brother is ONE THING that a person who is walking in the light does, because he/she recognizes their own sinfulness revealed by the light, and therefore humbly forgives others their sins.

I don't know how you got there from those passages. I agree that loving your neighbor sums up the Law with regard to our relationship to others, but a good portion of the moral Law is directed at our relationship to God, as well (Love God, no other gods, etc.). Keeping the commandments is not the equivalent of walking in the light, it is just something that those who walk in the light tend to do.

No. According to the NT, we must have faith in Jesus Christ, in His substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and that we must confess Jesus as Lord and call on His name (Romans 10:5-13). This results in salvation/justification, and the good works naturally follow from a regenerate heart.

I have no problem with most of that, but if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we abide in sin (keep on sinning/habitual sin), that is evidence that we may not be saved, but only God knows when that person might be able to overcome the sin. If we struggle against our sin, if we hunger for holiness, and strive for it, that is evidence that we are saved. Note that Jesus said: "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled" (Matthew 5:6)… He did not say blessed are they who are righteous. No one is sinless at any given moment. We all stumble in many ways (you never did address that quote from James). Only continuing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ justifies us, and that faith leads us to strive for holiness, or it is no faith at all.

If you were to read my explanation on 1 John 1:8, I did say the OSAS proponent believe their sin is real. I was saying essentially they also believe their future sin is paid for and so they don’t need to worry about their sin condemning at any judgment. But this is not what we see take place in Matthew 7:23. Jesus tells certain believers to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 27, 2018

food4thought said:
I disagree about that... they should be looked upon as discussing current (verse 8) and past (verse 10) experience.

Always.

Yes it does.

No it doesn't... verse 10 is NOT modifying verse 8, it is complimenting it.

Excellent insight. Gnosticism in it's beginning form was a big opponent to the gospel when John was writing.

Agreed. BTW, I am unsure of OSAS, and lean towards the possibility of a believer leaving their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Does it say in 1 John 2:3-4 that the person who breaks a commandment is damned? NO!!! In the context of:

1 John 3:4-6 ESV Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (5) You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. (6) No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

What John is saying in the context of the whole book is that a person who practices unrepentant habitual sin does not know God. UNREPENTANT... HABITUAL.. SIN. Sinning is something we all do (remember what the two greatest commandments teach), and does not cost us our salvation every time we sin!!! If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God's wrath has been poured out on Christ so it would not have to be poured out on those who trust in Him. Of course, those who trust in Him will demonstrate that truth through living out their faith by doing righteousness (imperfectly, but striving towards the goal).

I agree with them on that point. All I would add is that belief is not enough... the demons believe, and tremble. There must be good works that follow salvation in a person who has true, saving faith.

No, but it's straightforward meaning is just what it says... if we have no sin.

Ok.

That is not what I was taught at all (I once believed in OSAS). This is a straw man. OSAS believe that their sin is real, but their sin has been paid for by the blood of Christ. If our sins are not forgiven us for Christ's sake, then Christ died in vain, we are still in our sins, and everyone from Adam on is lost.

On the contrary, according to Robertson's Word Pictures (a commentary that gives an in depth look at the Greek words of the NT):

If we confess (ean homologōmen). Third-class condition again with ean and present active subjunctive of homologeō, “if we keep on confessing.” Confession of sin to God and to one another (Jas_5:16) is urged throughout the N.T. from John the Baptist (Mar_1:5) on.

If we "keep on confessing" our sins, we are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary on 1 John 1:7:

"It is significant that John talked of walking in the light, rather than according to the light. To walk according to the light would require sinless perfection and would make fellowship with God impossible for sinful humans. To walk in it, however, suggests instead openness and responsiveness to the light. John did not think of Christians as sinless, even though they are walking in the light, as is made clear in the last part of this verse. For John added that the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from every sin."

The two are not equivalent. Loving your brother is ONE THING that a person who is walking in the light does, because he/she recognizes their own sinfulness revealed by the light, and therefore humbly forgives others their sins.

I don't know how you got there from those passages. I agree that loving your neighbor sums up the Law with regard to our relationship to others, but a good portion of the moral Law is directed at our relationship to God, as well (Love God, no other gods, etc.). Keeping the commandments is not the equivalent of walking in the light, it is just something that those who walk in the light tend to do.

No. According to the NT, we must have faith in Jesus Christ, in His substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and that we must confess Jesus as Lord and call on His name (Romans 10:5-13). This results in salvation/justification, and the good works naturally follow from a regenerate heart.

I have no problem with most of that, but if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we abide in sin (keep on sinning/habitual sin), that is evidence that we may not be saved, but only God knows when that person might be able to overcome the sin. If we struggle against our sin, if we hunger for holiness, and strive for it, that is evidence that we are saved. Note that Jesus said: "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled" (Matthew 5:6)… He did not say blessed are they who are righteous. No one is sinless at any given moment. We all stumble in many ways (you never did address that quote from James). Only continuing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ justifies us, and that faith leads us to strive for holiness, or it is no faith at all.

As for 1 John 3:9:

It is not talking about habitual sin. Various modern translations suggest this and it is false. 1 John 3:6 holds the key to understanding here.

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” (1 John 3:6).

Whosever abides in Him (Jesus) sins not. This means that whenever we are in the born again state, with the “seed” (which is Christ) abiding in us, we cannot sin (while abiding in Him) because when we put on Christ, we crucify the affections and lust (See Romans 13:14). A person can turn from Christ and willfully sin of their own accord, but they would not be acting out of any kind of born again state or with them abiding in Christ. Christ cannot sin. He is God. So it is the person’s choice in siding with the devil to sin. For 1 John 3:8 says that he that commits sin is of the devil. Remember. Jesus called Peter as Satan when he had the sinful thought of trying to prevent Jesus in going to the cross.

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 27, 2018

savedthroughgrace said:
Jason,

Let me start by saying that I believe that we as believers can sin and break fellowship with God. I believe as 1 John 1:9 says, we should confess our sins to receive forgiveness and be cleansed from unrighteousness. I believe that if a believer commits a sin and confesses and repents, then they are saved. I believe that by God's grace, through our faith we are saved and that true saving faith produces works. I agree to your point that we shouldn't sin and assume that we can sin now and ask for forgiveness later. That would be trying to live of the world, while also living for Christ. The bible is clear that we cannot do that. I have to believe, however, that Christian CAN and will commits heinous sins. I have done so. I "fought" different forms of sexual sin for a long time. I say "fought" because I never really realized how severe my sin was and I never turned it over to Christ. I just said, this is wrong and I shouldn't do it, I would stop for a while and it would happen. In my case it wasn't until I committed adultery that I realized how far I had been straying. I believe the Holy Spirit convicted me and through prayer and bible reading I learned how I needed to get my life in Christ back. Through confession to God, my wife, close friends, and repentance of all sexual sin. I would love to hear if you agree or disagree with my assessment of my own situation. Are you saying that I am beyond saving? Is anyone beyond saving? If a believer entertains sin for a season are they able to truly repent? I would also like to question you on one point. It seems you reference "grievous" and "serious" sin in regards to losing fellowship. What qualifies as such? Is our salvation secure while in non-serious sin?

I need to first know what you believe so I can know how to answer you properly. I will give you my acid test question. Was King David saved while he was committing his sins of adultery and murder?

savedthroughgrace · Oct 27, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I need to first know what you believe so I can know how to answer you properly. I will give you my acid test question. Was King David saved while he was committing his sins of adultery and murder?

I do not know if he was saved. I know God was angry and would have killed him if he did not repent. There are a lot of things I do not claim to know. I know that in Psalms David writes for God to restore the joy of his salvation and renew in him a right spirit. I am not sure if what he was asking for was his salvation back or the joy/assurance of his salvation.

salt-n-light · Oct 27, 2018

MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah said:
If you meet a prideful sinner.
How would you tell him about Jesus, in order that he would be saved.
Keeping in mind, he will do what you say.

Would you tell him to humble himself (repent)?

If you do, then are you getting him to do a work, before/in order to getting saved.

What steps would he need to take, that aren't works, in order to be saved.

Keep in mind this verse: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time"

This is a question for those who vainly throw "saved by grace, not works" verse at every opportunity.

He's required to have faith in order to be saved, the repentance is the result of salvation.
Humility is not synonymous to repentance, but the fruits of repentance is humility. So it first requires a heart open to change, that doesn't require work.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 27, 2018

savedthroughgrace said:
I do not know if he was saved. I know God was angry and would have killed him if he did not repent. There are a lot of things I do not claim to know. I know that in Psalms David writes for God to restore the joy of his salvation and renew in him a right spirit. I am not sure if what he was asking for was his salvation back or the joy/assurance of his salvation.

I have provided a link to an article to help you understand where I am coming from. While I do not agree with everything this Christian author says and does, I do agree with them on this article in regards to King David.

King David and Bathsheba | King David's Adultery

I am not allowed to copy and paste the article here in any capacity; So that is why I provided just the link instead.

savedthroughgrace · Oct 27, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I have provided a link to an article to help you understand where I am coming from. While I do not agree with everything this Christian author says and does, I do agree with them on this article in regards to King David.

King David and Bathsheba | King David's Adultery

I am not allowed to copy and paste the article here in any capacity; So that is why I provided just the link instead.

I pretty well agree with this article, hence my concern for my own salvation. I believe salvation can be lost. The circumstances in which you can lose salvation and the regaining of such is what concerns me.

To my questions: Is there a sin that cannot be repented of and thus salvation is a total loss?
What do you mean by grievous sin? Murder and adultery? Are there more?
Is our salvation secure when one commits "non grievous" sin? What are these sins and what makes them different?

Thank you for your time

nChrist · Oct 28, 2018

MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah said:
This is a question for those who vainly throw "saved by grace, not works" verse at every opportunity.

(Romans 4:5-6 [KJV]) [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

bangmegafan · Oct 28, 2018

MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah said:
Ok, then assume this person has some super pride. How will they repent genuinely if they're full of pride.

If the person has super pride before God, how can he be saved. There is no question saving as he is so pride that he can't repent his sins

Neogaia777 · Oct 28, 2018

bangmegafan said:
If the person has super pride before God, how can he be saved. There is no question saving as he is so pride that he can't repent his sins

Do not harden your hearts....

God Bless!

Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2018

savedthroughgrace said:
I pretty well agree with this article, hence my concern for my own salvation.

I believe salvation can be lost. The circumstances in which you can lose salvation and the regaining of such is what concerns me.

To my questions: Is there a sin that cannot be repented of and thus salvation is a total loss?

Here are some unforgivable sins:

1. Apostasy: Denying Jesus as one's Savior after one has had the Holy Spirit, etc.
2. Speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost.
3. Committing suicide and staying dead.

A sin whereby a person's name was never written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8):

1. Worshiping the beast.

You said:
What do you mean by grievous sin? Murder and adultery?

Yes (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

You said:
Are there more?

Not spreading the gospel (See Luke 9:62), and not helping the poor in this life (Matthew 25:31-46).

Is our salvation secure when one commits "non grievous" sin? What are these sins and what makes them different?

Well, a Christian will not seek to go against even the commands that if disobeyed, would be considered as non-grievous sins.

1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin not unto death. In context within 1 John 5, I believe this is confessed sin (Whereby believers are praying for a believer who trying to overcome a particular sin - and give him the victory in overcoming it). This person who is struggling with this sin is confessing it and seeking out help.

There are other "sins not unto death" mentioned in the Bible. Baptism is a command that if disobeyed in this life is not a sin that leads unto death (See 1 Peter 3:21 and compare the words "filth of the flesh" with the words "filthiness of the flesh" in 2 Corinthians 7:1). There are other commands in the New Testament that are mentioned with no warning that it will cause a loss of salvation if it is disobeyed. Jesus said we are to rejoice when others falsely accuse us, etc. (See Matthew 5:11-12); But yet, nowhere Scripture does it state that if we refuse to do this command from the Lord, we will perish. Basically any command in the Bible that does not appear to be a major violation of loving God, and loving your neighbor with it having no warnings of hellfire or no mention of a loss of eternal life is suggestive that it is a "non-grievous sin."

You said:
Thank you for your time

You are most welcome.
May God's goodness be upon you this fine day.

How would this sinner be saved, without works.

Can a prideful sinner be saved, if they stay prideful?

Yes

No

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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