How would the position of no end of the world be classified?

[david shelby]

Forever in hebrew can mean for a period of time, or long time, as well as eternity. Those verse speak to the earth lasting a long time.
Olam 5769
always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,

Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare netsach, ad.

alam 5957
forever lasting, old

(Aramaic) corresponding to owlam; remote time, i.e. The future or past indefinitely; often adverb, forever -- for ((n-))ever (lasting), old.

5703 ad
eternity, everlasting, old, perpetually, world without end

From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition) -- eternity, ever(- lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.


From reading the rest of Scripture we can see that the earth will be destroyed and thus the Lord's meaning in those passages was that it would last a long time.
Matthew 24:29-31; Micha 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17,26:21,2:9; Zephaniah 1:18,2:22,3:8,1:2-3; Haggi 2:6-7; Malichi 4:1; Joel 2:10,31; Hosea 10:8; 1 Thess 1:7-9,2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9

I certainly understand that "ad olam" doesn't always mean "forever." In fact I started another thread on that (can't get the link to work), regarding how I think translating it as "forever" is wrong in the passage about Solomon's reign in 1 Chronicles 17:10-14.

But in these cases, I do think that it actually means forever. Naturally, scientifically, I see no reason to believe that the world ever ends. Such notions come from mysticism, which may masquerade as science, but is not science. And in the Old Testament in general, I see nothing saying the world will end.

Ok, you have listed some OT verses that you think state the earth will end, but I don't see it.

Micah 1:3-4, "...Then the mountains will melt under him and the valleys will burst open, like wax near the fire..." I think only means in some theophany, if God appears locally somewhere, the mountains get set of fire by his presence, same as in Psalm 97:5 which speaks of some past theophany "The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth."

Zephaniah 1:18, ha eretz doesn't always mean earth as in the whole planet, and in fact rarely does, but mostly means "the land", so "but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy" doesn't suggest the end of the world to me. Same with Zeph 3:8's similar phrase. Zeph 2:2, "the day of the Lord’s wrath" only suggests a day when he has some foreign nation invade, not an end of the world.

Zephaniah 1:2-3 is a good example of the translation issue that misleads people in reading the Old Testament. I have BibleGateway open with the NRSV on one side and the KJV on the other right now, and one says "I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth" and the other "I will utterly consume all things from off the land" and you have to decide, which is more reasonable per the context. And in the context of the OT prophets, they're constantly speaking of Israel being invaded by foreign nations as punishment for their leaders going off into idolatry, like the Assyrian or Babylonian captivities. And its just more reasonable to me to understand it as referring to such invasions of "the land" not an end of the earth.

Haggai 2:6-7, "Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; 7 and I will shake all the nations, so that the treasure of all nations shall come, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts." Its clearly a political shaking, because the end result is to bring gold and such to the house, i.e. the temple. That's not describing an end of the world.

Malachi 4:1, again an invasion. "Day of the Lord" is common OT parlance for a day when the Lord finally gives up being patient with the nation for its leaders going into idolatry and allows some invasion to occur to punish it and bring it to repentance.

Joel 2:10 and Joel 2:31 that there will be earthquakes and darkenings of the sun and the moon be turned to blood BEFORE the Terrible Day of the Lord. It means some astronomical events occur before an invasion. As verse 32 talks about, concerning those who will "escape." How or why will they escape? Because before the invasion comes in, they will see these portents (as verse 30 calls them) and know the invasion is about to happen, and thus have the chance to escape! And who will so escape? "Those who call on the name of the Lord" or in other words, those who are not idolators and are not the true target of that coming punishment.

Yes, I realize that the New Testament repurposes that phraseology at the end of Joel 2 "Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" as if its about spiritual salvation, but that's a repurposing, not the meaning of the text, because the next phrase is "for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls," showing that contextually its about salvation from a physical event, from an invasion.

Hosea 10:8 "The high places of Aven, the sin of Israel,
shall be destroyed.
Thorn and thistle shall grow up
on their altars.
They shall say to the mountains, Cover us,
and to the hills, Fall on us."

Meaning, the idolators in Israel who worship other gods in these high places will wish for death, because of the invasion God allowed to come in and destroy their shrines and enslave them and transport them off into foreign captivity as slaves. It talks about destruction of altars and shrines, not the world.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

I certainly understand that "ad olam" doesn't always mean "forever." In fact I started another thread on that (can't get the link to work), regarding how I think translating it as "forever" is wrong in the passage about Solomon's reign in 1 Chronicles 17:10-14.

But in these cases, I do think that it actually means forever. Naturally, scientifically, I see no reason to believe that the world ever ends. Such notions come from mysticism, which may masquerade as science, but is not science. And in the Old Testament in general, I see nothing saying the world will end.

Ok, you have listed some OT verses that you think state the earth will end, but I don't see it.

Micah 1:3-4, "...Then the mountains will melt under him and the valleys will burst open, like wax near the fire..." I think only means in some theophany, if God appears locally somewhere, the mountains get set of fire by his presence, same as in Psalm 97:5 which speaks of some past theophany "The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth."

Zephaniah 1:18, ha eretz doesn't always mean earth as in the whole planet, and in fact rarely does, but mostly means "the land", so "but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy" doesn't suggest the end of the world to me. Same with Zeph 3:8's similar phrase. Zeph 2:2, "the day of the Lord’s wrath" only suggests a day when he has some foreign nation invade, not an end of the world.

Zephaniah 1:2-3 is a good example of the translation issue that misleads people in reading the Old Testament. I have BibleGateway open with the NRSV on one side and the KJV on the other right now, and one says "I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth" and the other "I will utterly consume all things from off the land" and you have to decide, which is more reasonable per the context. And in the context of the OT prophets, they're constantly speaking of Israel being invaded by foreign nations as punishment for their leaders going off into idolatry, like the Assyrian or Babylonian captivities. And its just more reasonable to me to understand it as referring to such invasions of "the land" not an end of the earth.

Haggai 2:6-7, "Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; 7 and I will shake all the nations, so that the treasure of all nations shall come, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts." Its clearly a political shaking, because the end result is to bring gold and such to the house, i.e. the temple. That's not describing an end of the world.

Malachi 4:1, again an invasion. "Day of the Lord" is common OT parlance for a day when the Lord finally gives up being patient with the nation for its leaders going into idolatry and allows some invasion to occur to punish it and bring it to repentance.

Joel 2:10 and Joel 2:31 that there will be earthquakes and darkenings of the sun and the moon be turned to blood BEFORE the Terrible Day of the Lord. It means some astronomical events occur before an invasion. As verse 32 talks about, concerning those who will "escape." How or why will they escape? Because before the invasion comes in, they will see these portents (as verse 30 calls them) and know the invasion is about to happen, and thus have the chance to escape! And who will so escape? "Those who call on the name of the Lord" or in other words, those who are not idolators and are not the true target of that coming punishment.

Yes, I realize that the New Testament repurposes that phraseology at the end of Joel 2 "Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" as if its about spiritual salvation, but that's a repurposing, not the meaning of the text, because the next phrase is "for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls," showing that contextually its about salvation from a physical event, from an invasion.

Hosea 10:8 "The high places of Aven, the sin of Israel,
shall be destroyed.
Thorn and thistle shall grow up
on their altars.
They shall say to the mountains, Cover us,
and to the hills, Fall on us."

Meaning, the idolators in Israel who worship other gods in these high places will wish for death, because of the invasion God allowed to come in and destroy their shrines and enslave them and transport them off into foreign captivity as slaves. It talks about destruction of altars and shrines, not the world.

A few Old testament you did not address.
Zeph 3:
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Zeph 2:
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.

Isaiah 66:
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

When this happens we are told that all the elements and the heavens and the earth will melt away and nothing will be left of them.

2 Thess 1:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 20:
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Revelation 6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


We see by looking at the New Testament and the Whole of Scripture that ever mountain, Island, and element that is of the earth will be dissolved and there will be found no place for them. We can see from scripture that the earth will indeed pass away and be found no more.

 

[GingerBeer]

Definitely not atheism. These passages are basically stating that the earth will last forever because that God who created it is so powerful. In fact, thinking along that line, there is another passage in Ecclesiastes 3:14 that explains it essentially that way, i.e. "I know that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it; God has done this, so that all should stand in awe before him." That's clearly the thinking behind the statement he makes in Ecclesiastes 1:4 about the earth remaining forever.

Now what I find funny is that atheists do believe the world will end, based on something they will call "science" but it doesn't seem very "scientific" to me. Like, some scientists will say that the sun will burn out in several billion years because it will run out of energy, or others that it will explode in several billion years because it will get unstable. How can they determine any of this? They've never been inside the sun to understand how it is fueled. There is no reasonably sufficient observation of the sun to make such predictions.

There's a whole galaxy of suns many of which are easily observed from Earth and some of them burn out and some go nova and a few very big ones go super-nova so that is now astronomers work it out.

 

[steve78]

I don't believe in the end of the world. There's no reason to. The bible describes a time of turmoil leading to a long time of history, which leads to a time when the Church loses its influence on the world, and then a change for the better.

The world will end cause one day our sun will go nova and destroy the earth. This won't happen for billions of years yet. I think humankind will be long gone before that happens cause we seem hell bent on destroying our planet and our species with doomsday weapons.

We are at a crucial point cause we are advanced enough now to kill ourselves and trash the earth but not yet advanced to be able to leave earth and colonize other planets. It will probally be about another 200+ years before we can have human colonies across the galaxy so what happens in the next two centuries will probally determine if the human species is to survive.

 

[mkgal1]

From reading the rest of Scripture we can see that the earth will be destroyed and thus the Lord's meaning in those passages was that it would last a long time.
Matthew 24:29-31; Micha 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17,26:21,2:9; Zephaniah 1:18,2:22,3:8,1:2-3; Haggi 2:6-7; Malichi 4:1; Joel 2:10,31; Hosea 10:8; 1 Thess 1:7-9,2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9

I'm not going to go through every one of these passages - but I'm of the belief that most of what the prophets (and Jesus) were foretelling was the "new thing" God was bringing in - how, instead of dwelling with His people in a physical place - He was going to dwell within the hearts of His people. The temple (and the human priesthood) would have NO purpose and would be destroyed. That was fulfilled first in 587 BC (when Solomon's temple was destroyed) and again in 70 AD when the second temple was destroyed. The place "Judah" (as mentioned in Micah) hasn't existed since 136 A.D. Look at that whole book of Micah - it's not about the end of the WORLD - it's about the end of the ancient Jewish world (and the end of the Temple system):

Micah 1 ~

And why is this happening?
Because of the rebellion of Israel—
yes, the sins of the whole nation.
Who is to blame for Israel’s rebellion?
Samaria, its capital city!
Where is the center of idolatry in Judah?
In Jerusalem, its capital!

6 “So I, the Lord, will make the city of Samaria
a heap of ruins.
Her streets will be plowed up
for planting vineyards.
I will roll the stones of her walls into the valley below,
exposing her foundations.
7 All her carved images will be smashed.
All her sacred treasures will be burned.
These things were bought with the money
earned by her prostitution,
and they will now be carried away
to pay prostitutes elsewhere.”​

Micah 3 ~

This is what the Lord says:
“You false prophets are leading my people astray!
You promise peace for those who give you food,
but you declare war on those who refuse to feed you.
6 Now the night will close around you,
cutting off all your visions.
Darkness will cover you,
putting an end to your predictions.
The sun will set for you prophets,
and your day will come to an end.
7 Then you seers will be put to shame,
and you fortune-tellers will be disgraced.
And you will cover your faces
because there is no answer from God.”

8 But as for me, I am filled with power—
with the Spirit of the Lord.
I am filled with justice and strength
to boldly declare Israel’s sin and rebellion.
9 Listen to me, you leaders of Israel!
You hate justice and twist all that is right.
10 You are building Jerusalem
on a foundation of murder and corruption.
11 You rulers make decisions based on bribes;
you priests teach God’s laws only for a price;
you prophets won’t prophesy unless you are paid.
Yet all of you claim to depend on the Lord.
“No harm can come to us,” you say,
“for the Lord is here among us.”
12 Because of you, Mount Zion will be plowed like an open field;
Jerusalem will be reduced to ruins!
A thicket will grow on the heights
where the Temple now stands.

Quoting AboutBibleProphecy:
In Micah 3:11-12, the prophet Micah said that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that "Zion" - a central part of Jerusalem - would be "plowed like a field."

Micah's prophecy is believed to have been delivered in about 730 BC (about 2700 years ago). Since that time, Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 BC by the Babylonians and by the Romans in 70 AD. The Romans destroyed it again in 135 AD to crush a second Jewish rebellion for independence.

According to a text in the Gemara - a collection of ancient Jewish writings - the Romans ran a plow over Zion on the 9th day of the Jewish month of Ab. The Gemara said that Turnus Rufus, a Roman officer, plowed the area of the Temple. This prophecy was fulfilled in literal detail. ~
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/micah_3_11.htm​

 

[Foxfyre]

Atheism?

Except that Atheists think that the world will end in a few billion years.

So do most scientists who aren't Atheists.

 

[DamianWarS]

How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

"Forever" is a pretty abstract concept one that doesn't mix well with ancient Hebrew. Ancient Hebrew is an extremely concrete language and this would mirror critical thinking ability as well. Although often translated as "forever" it is better communicated as an unknown distant time and does not have to mean it will never end but rather it is out of reach. More concretely the word is for a point beyond the the horizon so this concept itself doesn't express never ending but more saying from what I can see it keeps on going.

 

[GingerBeer]

So do most scientists who aren't Atheists.

It's true that some scientists are not atheists and that most of those ones accept that the world (Earth) will end in the fires of the Sun's nova in a few billions of years.

 

[Foxfyre]

It's true that some scientists are not atheists and that most of those ones accept that the world (Earth) will end in the fires of the Sun's nova in a few billions of years.

Except that as I previously posted, most scientists, regardless of their spirituality or lack thereof, believe our sun is too small to go Nova. But in 4 or 5 more billion years, it likely will have consumed its hydrogen fuel, and the resulting super heated helium will expand into the Earth's orbit, destroying all life of any form on Earth, before it eventually cools and shrinks to be a dead white dwarf insignificant in the universe as our small solar system already pretty much already is.

And our Earth, a planet devoid of atmosphere and lifeforms, will be much further from the sun than it now is and just one more object in space.

 

[mkgal1]

From Romans 8:

Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. 19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. 22 For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
​

From Proverbs 30:24-28 (why would God impart such wisdom and extraordinary detail in creation if He were to just turn around and destroy it all?):

There are four things on earth that are small but unusually wise:
25 Ants—they aren’t strong,
but they store up food all summer.
26 Hyraxes—they aren’t powerful,
but they make their homes among the rocks.
27 Locusts—they have no king,
but they march in formation.
28 Lizards—they are easy to catch,
but they are found even in kings’ palaces.​

 

[mkgal1]

Malachi 4:1, again an invasion. "Day of the Lord" is common OT parlance for a day when the Lord finally gives up being patient with the nation for its leaders going into idolatry and allows some invasion to occur to punish it and bring it to repentance.

Exactly.

From Ray Vander Laan ~
Vespasian began his campaign in AD 67 in Galilee, where a young priest, Joseph, was in command. His army numbered more than 50,000 men. Vespasian took Sepphoris, Jotapata (where Joseph surrendered to the general and became the Roman scribe Josephus), and several other towns with brutal force. He also destroyed Gamla, where the Zealot movement began, putting 10,000 people to the sword. Most of the towns of the region were left as smoking ruins. Many men were executed, often crucified, and the women and children were sold into slavery. A few were saved for the games in the arena. Galilee was again Roman.

Vespasian then conquered the coast, including Joppa, and the lands to the east of Judea. He took Jericho, which guarded the eastern approach to Jerusalem, and Emmaus, which guarded the western. Jerusalem was now isolated.

In AD 68, the campaign halted due to the suicide of Nero. As Josephus had predicted (a prediction that apparently spared his life), Vespasian became emperor. He left his son Titus to complete the campaign against Jerusalem.

The situation in Jerusalem was horrible. Several factions of Zealots converged on the city, having been defeated elsewhere. They blamed each other for their defeats. One group controlled the Temple Mount and appointed their own priest. When the Sadducee priests resisted, they were slaughtered along with 8,500 of their supporters. The sewers of the city ran with Jewish blood. Simon Bar Giora, another self-proclaimed messiah, entered the city and fought the Zealots. Confusion and terror reigned. Jerusalem was divided into three sections, each fighting the other as the Romans tightened the noose. Apparently, the Christian community, possibly remembering Jesus' words (Matt. 24:15-16), fled to the mountain regions east of the country, beginning the long separation of Jew and Christian that would bear horrible consequences later.

In the spring of AD 70, Titus arrived outside Jerusalem. His army now numbered 80,000 or more. Titus breached the third wall near the end of May and slaughtered the people of that part of the city. Five days later, the second wall fell. Half of the city belonged to the Romans. In July, the Romans built a siege wall around the city to prevent escape and to starve the citizenry.

Unbelievably, the killing between Jewish factions continued. People killed each other over scraps of food. Anyone suspected of contemplating surrender was killed.

THE END OF THE REVOLT
The Antonia fortress fell in mid-July. On August 6, the sacrifices ceased in the Temple. The Temple itself was burned and destroyed on the ninth of the Jewish month of Ab (the end of August), the same day it had been destroyed by the Babylonians more than 600 years before. It has never been rebuilt. ~ The Jewish Revolts

 

[mkgal1]

"for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls," showing that contextually its about salvation from a physical event, from an invasion.

I agree. I believe this is when the early church believers followed Jesus' instruction for those in Judea to "flee to the mountains" (Matthew 24:16).

From that Ancient Faith: In all three accounts of the “desolation”, Jesus warns his listeners to “flee to the mountains” and if you were in the city, to leave it; if you were outside, to stay out! The early Christians took this seriously and, as is well documented in the historical record, they fled! This is what is known as the “flight to Pella” (Mark 13:14-16; Matt 24:16-18; Luke 21:21).

Pella was about 75 miles north of Jerusalem, which, according to Google Maps, would take you 26 hours to walk! That may seem a long way to go, but this is exactly what the Jerusalem Church did as they heeded the warnings from Jesus, and also from an angelic encounter telling them where to flee to!

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"

Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3​

For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis."

Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15

Read more at: The Coming of Jesus: The Olivet Discourse – Part 2​

 

[th1bill]

The Bible, as attested to in John 1: 1-5, Yashuah ha’Mashiah created everything and therefore is the author of the Scriptures, from, “In the beginning...” of the Genesis through the very last word of The Revelation of Yashuah ha’Mashiah is one message and the Greatest Context of this record is the Salvation of Man, YHWH’s greatest creation on this planet.



The greatest error made today among the people calling themselves Christian is the lack of study. When the man, called by the Greek interpretation of Yashuah, Jesus, taught Christianity, He taught it from the Bible, the Bible that He had inspired to be written, complete with everything any man or woman needs to know to avoid eternity in the Lake of Fire.



So the truth of the matter is that there must be a difference in these two testaments, right? One, the New Testament has no legs of truth to stand on without an intimate knowledge of the writings the first 39 books of the Christian Version of the scriptures.



The Bible, as it existed in the First Century AD consisted of 24 books that Christians later divided into 39 and titled them as the Old Testament



There is a logical. Sensible View that when any person tries to explain it draws, often, immediate retorts that lack any fore-thought or examination of the Scriptures. The Bible is composed of the 24 books of the Jewish Version of the scriptures and the only YHWH inspired Life Application Commentaries for the Bible are the 27 books and letters/commentaries misnamed as the New Testament.



The easiest way for this to be seen is by using the version of your choice with the Thompson Chain Reference included. Then pick any noted and referenced verse/topic and follow the chained references back to the original verse in the Jewish Bible, a.k.a. the Old Testament.



In spite of the Man Made division of Scripture, the Holy Bible has no division of chapter and verse but is to be read as a letter or as a novel. Furthermore, it must be read from beginning to end to grasp the context, a matter I see as having been thrown out of the education of our youth, today. If they read, they do not read the last chapter and store it on a book shelf or in a cardboard box.



The Bible is of many minor contexts wrapped into one major context and that being the salvation of YHWH’s Crowning Creation in His own image, Mankind. The Bible, in spite of the truth that the Bible Yashuah ha’Mashiah taught Christianity from was and is the twenty-four books that Christians have divided into thirty-nine and labeled as the Old Testament. There, simply, was not any further writing that was Canonized before Yashuah was nailed to the cross and died for us.



As tough as it is to see, the Bible is composed of the Bible Yashuah taught from and the twenty-seven God Inspired Life Application Commentaries of the Renewed Covenant with man.

Understanding, though not too simple, ia not difficult but does require the indwelling of Ruah, the Holy Spirit, and submission to Him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I agree. I believe this is when the early church believers followed Jesus' instruction for those in Judea to "flee to the mountains" (Matthew 24:16).

Read more at: The Coming of Jesus: The Olivet Discourse – Part 2​

Great post.

4 of the verses using g5343 are in Revelation [shown at bottom of post]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:16 "those in Judea flee........."

Matthew 24
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>......
16 then those in the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains;
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination of the desolation<2050>..........
Then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains

Luke 21
20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem being surrounded <2944> by armies, then be ye knowing that has neared the desolating of Her
21 then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains;
and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out to country; and those in the countries placed, let them not be entering into Her
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.
==========================
#5343 used in 4 verses of Revelation

REVELATION 9:6 'MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM"

Revelation 9:6
And in those days people shall be seeking<5343> the death, and not no shall be finding it.
And they shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying and the death is fleeing from them.
=================

Rev 12:6
Then the Woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Rev 16:20
Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from Whose face the land and the heaven fled away.
And there was found no place for them.

.

 

[GingerBeer]

Except that as I previously posted, most scientists, regardless of their spirituality or lack thereof, believe our sun is too small to go Nova. But in 4 or 5 more billion years, it likely will have consumed its hydrogen fuel, and the resulting super heated helium will expand into the Earth's orbit, destroying all life of any form on Earth, before it eventually cools and shrinks to be a dead white dwarf insignificant in the universe as our small solar system already pretty much already is.

And our Earth, a planet devoid of atmosphere and lifeforms, will be much further from the sun than it now is and just one more object in space.

The expansion of the sun from its nice compact yellow star size to its late life red giant size is what is expected and some time in that red giant state the outer layers will be cast off (nova) and eventually all that will be left will be a little remnant dwarf star (white very likely) that will cool very very slowly and become a black dwarf.

Red giant Sun with cooked and burned Earth.

Wikipedia says:

After fusing helium in its core to carbon, the Sun will begin to collapse again, evolving into a compact white dwarf star after ejecting its outer atmosphere as a planetary nebula. The predicted final mass is 54.1% of the present value, most likely consisting primarily of carbon and oxygen.

Currently, the Moon is moving away from Earth at a rate of 4 cm (1.5 inches) per year. In 50 billion years, if the Earth and Moon are not engulfed by the Sun, they will become tidelocked into a larger, stable orbit, with each showing only one face to the other. Thereafter, the tidal action of the Sun will extract angular momentum from the system, causing the lunar orbit to decay and the Earth's spin to accelerate. In about 65 billion years, it is estimated that the Moon may end up colliding with the Earth, due to the remaining energy of the Earth–Moon system being sapped by the remnant Sun, causing the Moon to slowly move inwards toward the Earth.

If Earth is not destroyed by the expanding red giant Sun in 7.6 billion years, then on a time scale of 10**19 (10 quintillion) years the remaining planets in the Solar System will be ejected from the system by violent relaxation. If this does not occur to the Earth, the ultimate fate of the planet will be that it collides with the black dwarf Sun due to the decay of its orbit via gravitational radiation, in 10**20 (Short Scale: 100 quintillion, Long Scale: 100 trillion) years.​

 

[parousia70]

When this happens we are told that all the elements and the heavens and the earth will melt away and nothing will be left of them.
2 Thess 1:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Wait... so you are saying the 1st century Thessalonians are STILL, TODAY Suffering at the hands of their 1st century persecutors and have not yet received rest from the persecution they were then (and apparently are now still) suffering?

 

[five2one]

How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

there is an end of the age, beginning of new.

revelation is true, but in code

for those in the know

who need to know

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Wait... so you are saying the 1st century Thessalonians are STILL, TODAY Suffering at the hands of their 1st century persecutors and have not yet received rest from the persecution they were then (and apparently are now still) suffering?

They are resting in the Grave till Christ's return as Scripture says. Their persecutors not suffering the Second death until Christ's return with fire(Revelation 20).

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

I'm not going to go through every one of these passages - but I'm of the belief that most of what the prophets (and Jesus) were foretelling was the "new thing" God was bringing in - how, instead of dwelling with His people in a physical place - He was going to dwell within the hearts of His people. The temple (and the human priesthood) would have NO purpose and would be destroyed. That was fulfilled first in 587 BC (when Solomon's temple was destroyed) and again in 70 AD when the second temple was destroyed. The place "Judah" (as mentioned in Micah) hasn't existed since 136 A.D. Look at that whole book of Micah - it's not about the end of the WORLD - it's about the end of the ancient Jewish world (and the end of the Temple system):

Micah 1 ~

And why is this happening?
Because of the rebellion of Israel—
yes, the sins of the whole nation.
Who is to blame for Israel’s rebellion?
Samaria, its capital city!
Where is the center of idolatry in Judah?
In Jerusalem, its capital!

6 “So I, the Lord, will make the city of Samaria
a heap of ruins.
Her streets will be plowed up
for planting vineyards.
I will roll the stones of her walls into the valley below,
exposing her foundations.
7 All her carved images will be smashed.
All her sacred treasures will be burned.
These things were bought with the money
earned by her prostitution,
and they will now be carried away
to pay prostitutes elsewhere.”​

Micah 3 ~

This is what the Lord says:
“You false prophets are leading my people astray!
You promise peace for those who give you food,
but you declare war on those who refuse to feed you.
6 Now the night will close around you,
cutting off all your visions.
Darkness will cover you,
putting an end to your predictions.
The sun will set for you prophets,
and your day will come to an end.
7 Then you seers will be put to shame,
and you fortune-tellers will be disgraced.
And you will cover your faces
because there is no answer from God.”

8 But as for me, I am filled with power—
with the Spirit of the Lord.
I am filled with justice and strength
to boldly declare Israel’s sin and rebellion.
9 Listen to me, you leaders of Israel!
You hate justice and twist all that is right.
10 You are building Jerusalem
on a foundation of murder and corruption.
11 You rulers make decisions based on bribes;
you priests teach God’s laws only for a price;
you prophets won’t prophesy unless you are paid.
Yet all of you claim to depend on the Lord.
“No harm can come to us,” you say,
“for the Lord is here among us.”
12 Because of you, Mount Zion will be plowed like an open field;
Jerusalem will be reduced to ruins!
A thicket will grow on the heights
where the Temple now stands.

Quoting AboutBibleProphecy:
In Micah 3:11-12, the prophet Micah said that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that "Zion" - a central part of Jerusalem - would be "plowed like a field."

Micah's prophecy is believed to have been delivered in about 730 BC (about 2700 years ago). Since that time, Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 BC by the Babylonians and by the Romans in 70 AD. The Romans destroyed it again in 135 AD to crush a second Jewish rebellion for independence.

According to a text in the Gemara - a collection of ancient Jewish writings - the Romans ran a plow over Zion on the 9th day of the Jewish month of Ab. The Gemara said that Turnus Rufus, a Roman officer, plowed the area of the Temple. This prophecy was fulfilled in literal detail. ~
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/micah_3_11.htm​

The bible is a puzzle some portions of the Old Testament were simply types of the Fulfillment to come, and some directly speak of the Latter days or the end of days. The Whole book of Micah(as with the other prophetic books:Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Obidiah, Zechariah, Etc) is not all about one subject the book covers a range of subjects and times and prophecy's to be fulfilled. We see a change from an immediate prophecy(to be fulfilled soon there after) to a end of days prophecy in micah 4 and 5 when we are told that these next things to be spoken of will occur in the last days(of the earth).
Micah 4:
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

We see that what is being spoken of now is the valley of the mountain and the Anti-typical gathering of the wave sheaf offerings(first and second fruits/remnants) in the Last days. The change we first see in Micah is in Chapter one from end of days prophecy to soon there after prophecy. The first prophetic passages are speaking of the end and then the next passages are speaking of something else entirely, since nothing similar to what was prophesied here has yet happened, instead we see the Lord make the same promises to return with fire and melt the world and mountains in the Last days.
Micah 1
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord God be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the Lord cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

2 peter 3:
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


So we see that even Peter tells us that the Lord's Return will bring a melting of all the elements of the Earth and it shall be burned up, and the Heavens shall pass away at the Lord's return(as prophesied in Micah 1).
We are told in Hebrews also how the World that was formed by God will perish.
Hebrews 1:
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

david shelby said: ↑
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?
Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."
Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

Hello david.
Idealism is an interesting doctrine that I have began to study on.
I have a thread on it here if any are interested, or not............

Idealist Only - What are the eschatological views of "IDEALISTS"?

I noticed this "Idealist Only" tag on the drop down menu when creating a thread.
What are the Idealists eschatological views concerning prophecy fulfillment and is it an orthodox view?
Are there any on this Forum that are "Idealists?
Thanks............
https://www.preteristarchive.com/Idealism/2016_dennis_pi-hermeneutic.htm

Introduction to a Hybrid of Preterism and Idealism | DuBois: My Thoughts and Understanding of Preterist Idealism | The Covenants, The Jerusalems, The Flesh and The Spirit | Jerusalem as the Heart | Historical-Typological Method of Giblin