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Featured How would the position of no end of the world be classified?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by david shelby, Mar 26, 2019.

  1. david shelby

    david shelby Member

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    How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

    Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

    Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."
     
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  2. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Its a good example how we can come up with any imaginable doctrine if we work with isolated verses, not thinking about their context and genre.
     
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  3. david shelby

    david shelby Member

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    This is the position of many Jews, because they don't have those New Testament prophecies about the end of the world.
     
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  4. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    These Jews should know that its a poetic expression...

    They can end up with flath Earth, hollow Earth, young Earth, thinking with livers etc, with such attitude.

    But to your question, I do not think there is a specific theological term for the position of viewing Earth as eternal...
     
  5. david shelby

    david shelby Member

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    What is there in the Old Testament that would convince them that there is an end of the world coming?
     
  6. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Generally, I do not think that Bible should be a source of such things.

    But for example:

    In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
    They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
    Like clothing you will change them
    and they will be discarded.
    But you remain the same...

    Psalm 102:25
     
  7. david shelby

    david shelby Member

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    But in light of Psalm 104:5, Eccl 1:4, etc. wouldn't it make more sense to include verse 24 in the context here and understand the "they" in "they will perish" as the "my days" of verse 24:

    24 So I said:
    “Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days;
    your years go on through all generations.
    25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
    26 They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
    Like clothing you will change them
    and they will be discarded.
    27 But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.


    It does seem more likely he is contrasting his days, which end, with God's years, which never end, than the foundations of the earth (which other Psalms says shall never be removed) with God's years, especially since he also makes the clear claim here that (because the context here also cries out that verse 28 must be included):

    28 The children of your servants will live in your presence;
    their descendants will be established before you.”


    This seems to be talking about the earth remaining forever so that the Psalmist's descendants can be established before God forever on the earth in continuous generations. So if you include verses 24 and 28, the idea that its saying the foundations of the earth are what will be folded, just doesn't work.

    In fact, the talk of God laying the foundations of the earth and the heavens, seems to be introduced as a proof of the enormity of God's years in comparison to the Psalmist's days, and not to suggest that there will be an end of either the earth or the heavens.
     
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  8. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Trying to get a literal cosmology from rhymes is not a good thing to do, IMHO.
     
  9. david shelby

    david shelby Member

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    Where else would one get it in the Old Testament though? Therein is the question. And of course, Ecclesiastes 1 is not a poem. Its prose, isn't it? To that, can also be added that Moses' talk of the Passover ordinance lasting forever can be taken as showing that Moses assumed the earth lasts forever (Exodus 12:14, you can't eat lamb and mustard greens without the earth on which to grow them). That's not poetry.
     
  10. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Proverbs, Ecclesiastes etc are like adages, they contain a practical wisdom, but again, their goal is not to teach us cosmology.

    They saw that people are dying and the mountains their forefathers knew are still there. Thats what they meant by "eternal". They did not try to postulate a philosophy about the universe (they did not even know there is a universe as we know it).

    Why do you want to get literal, scientific cosmology from the Old Testament?
     
  11. david shelby

    david shelby Member

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    So where would you get it from the New Testament then? or would your position be the same that you shouldn't try to get it from the New Testament?
     
  12. James Chairs4U

    James Chairs4U New Member

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    Hello
    Sometimes reading and understanding the scripture before and after the scripture in question helps understand the meaning.


    James
     
  13. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you not want to simply read some scienfic journal or buy a telescope etc., why do you want religious texts to tell you about physics, astronomy etc?
     
  14. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    Cosmic eternalism. It was more of a Greek idea, but was also popular in the 19th century.

    Jews traditionally do believe in an eschatological future known as ʿolam ha-ba, or "the world to come", similar to Christians.
     
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  15. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe in the end of the world. There's no reason to. The bible describes a time of turmoil leading to a long time of history, which leads to a time when the Church loses its influence on the world, and then a change for the better.
     
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  16. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure - when you say 'no end of the world' do you mean 'no literal second coming - it was all spiritual'?

    Earth survives Sun going supernova in about 10 billion years?

    I guess the below doesn't happen, or it was some allegorical very non-literal spiritual interpretation?

    Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth" for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

    I guess I would call it "TerraEternism" if Earth physically persists forever. I'm not sure I like this whole 'no sea' bit on New Earth. I feel like we might want to negotiate that clause.

    Nothing lasts forever though.
     
  17. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    David, you asked for a classification. I would classify it as adiaphora.
     
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  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Scriptural.
    It would be classified as the "Scriptural Position".

    Holy Scripture teaches that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

    When we read the scripture "world without end, Amen" (Ephesians 3:21)
    Do people think scripture is joking?

    Does God think those of us who fervently affirm and pray HIS WORDS, every day, in that scripture... are joking?...

    Does He think we shouldn't take his words... seriously?
    That it's just Lipservice?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  19. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I don't believe in the literal destruction of the whole planet......

    Jesus says in Matthew 24:3 "full end of the age" not the global world.

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
    4930. sunteleia from 4931;
    entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
    165. aion from the same as 104;
    properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

    G4930 συντέλεια (synteleia), occurs 6 times in 6 verses
    5 times in Matthew and 1 time Hebrews

    Matthew 24:3

    Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
    when shall these be being?
    and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age<165>?

    Hebrews 9:26
    since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world,
    but now once, at the full end<4930> of the ages<165>, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

    This site has some views of this topic:

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/t/theory_false-prophets.html
    "End of the World" Prophecies
    Past, Present and Future
    Church "Fathers" and "Great Men"


    https://www.preteristarchive.com/2003_graham_the-end-of-the-world/

    So what does the Bible tell us about the end of the world and the Second Coming of Christ? Jesus said, “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man”. What were the days of Noah like? And what parallels do we see in our day?

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/2004_time_is-it-the-end-of-the-world-as-this-author-knows-it/
    Is It the End of the World as This Author Knows It?

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_preston_world-without-end.html

    With the turn of the century approaching speculation about the "end of the world" is running rampant. But does the Bible actually predict an end of time? Does the Biblical term "the last days" refer to the last days of TIME or to the last days of an AGE? We wish to take note some Bible facts.
    Good post. :amen:
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Ahhh. Interesting
    "not regarded as essential to faith............"

    https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Adiaphora

    Adiaphoron (/ædɪˈæfərɒn/, /ædiˈæfərɒn/[1][2] plural: adiaphora from the Greek ἀδιάφορα, the negation of διάφορα - Latin differentia - meaning "not differentiable").

    1313.
    diaphoros dee-af'-or-os from 1308; varying; also surpassing:--differing, divers, more excellent.

    Rom 12:6
    Having then gifts differing<1313> according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them:
    if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;

    In Christianity, "adiaphora" are matters not regarded as essential to faith, but nevertheless as permissible for Christians or allowed in church. What is specifically considered adiaphora depends on the specific theology in view.

    Lutheranism
    See also: Law and Gospel and Antinomianism § Lutheranism
    The issue of what constituted adiaphora became a major dispute during the Protestant Reformation. In 1548, two years after the death of Martin Luther, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V tried to unite Catholics and Protestants in his realm with a law called the Augsburg Interim. This law was rejected by Philipp Melanchthon, on the account that it did not ensure justification by faith as a fundamental doctrine. Later he was persuaded to accept a compromise known as the Leipzig Interim, deciding that doctrinal differences not related to justification by faith were adiaphora or matters not essential for salvation. Melanchthon's compromise was vehemently opposed by Matthias Flacius and his followers in Magdeburg, who went to the opposite extreme by claiming that adiaphora cease to be adiaphora in a case of scandal and confession. By 1576 both extremes were rejected by the majority of Lutherans led by Martin Chemnitz and the formulators of the Formula of Concord.

    In 1577, the Formula of Concord was crafted to settle the question of the nature of genuine adiaphora, which it defined as church rites that are "...neither commanded nor forbidden in the Word of God."[7] However, the Concord added believers should not yield even in matters of adiaphora when these are being forced upon them by the "enemies of God's Word".[8]

    The Lutheran Augsburg Confession states that the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike.
    ===========
     
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