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fhansen

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Jesus said you must be born again.
Yes?? That's how we become capable of fulfilling the law-and doing many other righteous things, all acts of love. IOW, we don't fulfill the law in order to please and become right in God's eyes (that's old covenant), rather we become freely and gratuitously right in God eyes as we turn to Him with the faith He gives us, accepting Him as our God again which pleases Him immensely as the union established by faith is the first and foremost right order of things- and then He can fulfill the law in us, He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts.

But we must cooperate-He never violates the human will because that's how He draws us into authentic righteousness, an intention and a work that He continues to pursue in us afterwards, to bring us to higher levels yet, nearer and nearer to His own image. But our justice or righteousness aren't even real until we begin to agree to their worth and assent to their reception.

Jesus meant it when He said our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. But with the faith, hope, and especially the love that He gives us as we accept, turning to Him in humble faith and away from the pride that separates all of us from Him, the pride that few Pharisees would relinquish, then a higher righteousness is easily obtained. To put it another way, even a little God-given love is of higher righteousness than human righteousness, which is no real righteousness at all. It's all a Gift.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So to "abide "in Christ, has happened, as God put all the born again in there..

If abiding in Christ has already happened then He wouldn’t have told them to abide in Him in verse 4. The word abide means to stay, remain, or continue. So you can’t say they’ve already remained when Jesus tells them to remain in Him. When He tells them to remain in Him it’s referring to the future tense. We already know that they are presently in Christ at this time so your explanation doesn’t make sense at all. Furthermore if it is completely up to God whether or not a person abides in Christ then again it would be completely useless for Jesus to tell them to abide in Him if they have no control over it.
 
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Clare73

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I always kind of hope no one plays the “Greek card” anytime-and especially here in any case because the whole business of justification is a bit of a messy affair translation wise.
I'm not in a position to play the '"Greek card."
I’d first of all submit that it’s a bit ironic that the majority of the original ancient churches were Greek speaking, in the east, where the gospel was spread in Greek and the official language of the celebration is most often Koine Greek to this day and yet they hold to the same basic position on justification as the RCC.
Being "most often" the language of the celebration is not much help in reading the Greek Scriptures.
The problem was probably lack of most careful attention to consistency with all that is revealed about "justification" in the NT.
And while I’m strictly an amateur on this, I know that the Greek root word for most of the words used in the bible pertaining to righteousness (and there are many variations or derivatives with slightly different meanings) is dikaios which simply means righteous or just. The NIV, NRSV, and NKJV all translate Rom 5:18 using the term “justification”, meaning to be made just or righteous. The Greek is dikaiōsin:
Which is a form of the word dikaiosi (justification).
Note the "be made," rather than "be-come" in the righteousness of justification.
We "be-come" in the righeousness of sanctification.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. NIV

Rom 5:19 actually spells it out with two separate words, dikaioi katastathēsontai, which only translate as “made righteous”.
The two separate words mean were made/will be made (katastathēsontai) righteous (dikaioi) .
The concept of strict imputation doesn't really fit here:

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
Imputation (accounting) to us of Adam's sin fits perfectly in Romans 5:19a. . .it is the conclusion of the argument in Romans 5:12-14, regarding what sin caused death between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against at that time.
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. NIV
And the imputation (accounting) to us of Christ's righteousness in Romans 5:19b is testified to many times elsewhere in the NT: Romans 4:3, Romans 4:9, Romans 4:22-25, Romans 1:17, Romans 3:22, etc.

Both uses of imputation in Romans 5:19 mean strict direct imputation, both are correct and both fit perfectly.
Paul has carefully and precisely constructed his argument regarding the exact and direct imputation of Adam's sin, beginning in Romans 5:12-14, where his argument is:
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
Sin is transgression of the law. Where there is no law, there is no sin taken in account (Romans 5:13).
There was no law between Adam and Mose, therefore no transgression, and yet all died because all sinned (Romans 5:12), even though they did not transgress the law (Romans 5:14), proof that God held them all guilty of Adam's sin because that was the only sin existing in the world (Romans 5:13--guilt of transgression; i.e., sin) at the time.
His argument is then completed in Romans 5:18-19 in two precisely constructied parallelisms of exact and direct imputation, establishing our guilt in this condemnation into which we are born.

In Romans 5:15-16 Paul contrasts, and then in Romans 5:17-19 he parallels two conrasts of the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adams trespass, just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience. Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1 Corinthians 15:45), meaning that our interest (involvement) in the two of them is of the same nature (1 Corinthians 15:22). In one man we are made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of direct imputation in vv.18-19, so that the last half of each verse gives the true meaning of the first half of each verse.
In neither half of the parallel does the outcome (guilt, righteousness) have anything to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature (just as) and the parallelism would be destroyed.

Paul's meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us just as (in the same way) Christ's righteousness is imputed to us; i.e., exact and direct.
The word used for “declared righteous” in Rom 2:13 is dikaiōthēsontai, and
this declaration or reckoning in any case is the direct result of obeying the law.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but
it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous
. NIV.
Or:
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but
the doers of the law who will be justified
. NRSV
Precisely. . .Paul's point is this righteousness does not exist because no one can "do the law" as required for this righteosuness, therefore, he says, "All who rely on the law are under a curse." (Galations 3:10).
So we can forget dikaiothesontai, no one is declared righteous by obeying the law (Romans 3:9-10), it has nothing to do with the righteousness of the born-again.
And this idea of obedience being the reason one is said to be righteous is echoed in Rom 6:16, the Greek word for righteousness being dikaiosynēn :
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? NIV
And it’s interesting that both Rom 6:16 above and Gal 5:4 below place gaining righteousness in the future, related to obedience again, by the Spirit and not a righteousness that comes by the law.
And this takes us back to what I think I have previously presented to you:
(in another thread, and maybe not)

1) righteousness of justification - is apart from works, and is imputed (credited) to one at faith.
It is a right-standing before God's justice ("not guilty," saved from God's judgment) only, not a state of holiness.

2) righteousness of sanctification - involves works of obedience in the Holy Spirit, in a process of growth in holiness.
Being justified is dikaiousthe and righteousness here is dikaiosynēs:

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. NIV
"Justified" is a form of the word dikaioo (to make or declare rightness, justness), and
"righteousness" is a form of the word dikaiosune (rightness, justice)

where we see the distiction here between righteousness by

justification
(dikaioo) - declared "not guilty" and righteousness imputed apart from works, and by
sanctification (dikaiosune) - holiness developed through works of obedience in the Holy Spirit.
A major difference between the old and new covenants is not that man is no longer obligated to be personally righteous under the new covenant, but that said righteousness is now finally achievable under the new, by the Spirit, under grace, in union with God. That's what it means to be made just.
That would be the righteousness of sanctification.

For the righteousness of justification through faith, which saves, is always apart from works and
by faith only (Romans 4:5, see Abraham, Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:1-5).

So in conclusion:
The righteousness of justification by faith apart from works which saves from God's judgment
(a righteousness of right-standing only) is made complete in

the righteousness of sanctification which involves works of obedience in the Holy Spirit
(a righteousess of holiness).

I think we may be close to agreement here on:

1) salvation from God's wrath (Romans 5:9) through faith, apart from works, in Jesus' atoning work
2) justification apart from works by declaration of "not guilty," and imputed righteousness (permanent right-standing with God's justice)
3) righteousness by sanctification through works in the Holy Spirit to complete our imputed permanent right-standing with God's justice
 
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Ligurian

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If abiding in Christ has already happened then He wouldn’t have told them to abide in Him in verse 4. The word abide means to stay, remain, or continue. So you can’t say they’ve already remained when Jesus tells them to remain in Him. When He tells them to remain in Him it’s referring to the future tense. We already know that they are presently in Christ at this time so your explanation doesn’t make sense at all. Furthermore if it is completely up to God whether or not a person abides in Christ then again it would be completely useless for Jesus to tell them to abide in Him if they have no control over it.

John.14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

Matthew.7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
 
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Ligurian

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I always kind of hope no one plays the “Greek card” anytime-and especially here in any case because the whole business of justification is a bit of a messy affair translation wise.

justified, dikaioo
James.2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

dikaioma from dikaioo; an equitable deed; by implication, a statute or decision:--judgment, justification, ordinance, righteousness.--Strong's
Rev.19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
 
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Ligurian

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This explanation ignores verses 4,5,and 7.

Verse 4 Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles to abide/remain in Him and tells them why they must abide/remain in Him. If they have no control over whether or not they will abide then this verse is useless.

Verse 5 again Jesus explain why they must abide/remain in Him which is again pointless if they have no control over it.

Verse 7 Jesus tells them what they can expect IF they abide/remain in Him. Do you see that word in verse 7 “IF you abide in Me”? It’s setting an uncertain condition that is required in order to receive anything they ask. It indicates an uncertainty of whether or not they will meet the requirement. Just like I’ve pointed out several times in Luke 13:6-9 that despite Jesus giving special attention to the tree it is uncertain whether or not the tree will bear fruit or if it will be cut down but unfortunately you ignore that passage because it’s a parable. And your so fond of saying parables are “symbolic” and not useable to formulate doctrine. So until you can reconcile your theology with all scripture you really don’t have a leg to stand on. I’ll be more than happy to explain how my theology doesn’t contradict ANY VERSE YOU HAVE. You will NEVER see me avoiding questions on how any verse contradicts my theology.

Matthew.21:19 And when He saw a fig tree in the way, He came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Luke isn't a Discipled-Apostle, Matthew and John are.
 
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Ligurian

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Yes?? That's how we become capable of fulfilling the law-and doing many other righteous things, all acts of love. IOW, we don't fulfill the law in order to please and become right in God's eyes (that's old covenant), rather we become freely and gratuitously right in God eyes as we turn to Him with the faith He gives us, accepting Him as our God again which pleases Him immensely as the union established by faith is the first and foremost right order of things- and then He can fulfill the law in us, He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts.

James.1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of turpitude, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
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Sidon

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It's both. Its a gift and a very human choice, to accept and act on that gift-or not. .

Again, you are trying to combine your self effort with God's Grace, as SALVATION.
That's a fail.

See, God's Grace is what God did, and not what you do later.

The GIFT of salvation, is not by works "lest any person will boast".

So, if you can ever understand that Salvation is all of God and none of you, then you have actually begun to comprehend the Blood of Jesus.
But not until.
 
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Sidon

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Yes?? That's how we become capable of fulfilling the law-

God does not need you to fulfill the law.
He already did that for you, as a part of Jesus's ministry.
You've already failed to keep it.
He didnt'.

Next, if you are born again, and not just water baptized, then you are to exist "under Grace", because the CURSE OF THE LAW, that you are chasing as your discipleship, has been removed by the Blood of Christ.

Stop chasing the Law.
Live instead to bear Spiritual Fruit to God.
The law is not fruit, so trying to keep it, is a DEAD WORK.
 
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BNR32FAN

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John.14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

Matthew.7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Yes these verses support my position.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The original early church fathers, or the ones after the church became incorporated with the Roman Empire?

The church in Rome was established by Peter and Paul. Rome remain in the church all the way up to 1054AD before it was finally excommunicated. The writings I’m referring to were written in the first 2 centuries. Ignatius, Iranaeus, Polycarp, etc. These men were taught by the apostles, well perhaps with the exception of Iranaeus, who was most likely too young to have learned much directly from them. But he still gives us incite as to what the church taught in the first century.
 
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ozso

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The church in Rome was established by Peter and Paul. Rome remain in the church all the way up to 1054AD before it was finally excommunicated. The writings I’m referring to were written in the first 2 centuries. Ignatius, Iranaeus, Polycarp, etc. These men were taught by the apostles, well perhaps with the exception of Iranaeus, who was most likely too young to have learned much directly from them. But he still gives us incite as to what the church taught in the first century.

Okay I know of them.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Okay I know of them.

I pretty much like to stick with the writings that were written in the first 3 centuries as evidence of what the early church taught. After that your talking about too many generations after the apostles and I think teachings could get confused and corrupted. The apostles taught for most of the first century so the teachings of the second & third century are from people who were either taught by the apostles themselves or taught by people who were taught by the apostles. So I think these teachings hold some weight as to what the apostles taught and how they interpreted the scriptures.
 
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Sidon

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If abiding in Christ has already happened then He wouldn’t have told them to abide in Him in verse 4.

Yes he does.
If you look at Galatians, you read where Paul is showing that they have stopped abiding, while still being born again.
He says of them, and to all LEGALISTS, "someone has bewitched you, and you now do not follow the TRUTH."""
"you are FALLEN FROM GRACE"
"you are IN THE FLESH">

All who teach that Law is now the dominion regarding the born again, are "fallen from Grace", and "in the flesh".
Paul says they are : Galatians 1:8
 
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fhansen

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Again, you are trying to combine your self effort with God's Grace, as SALVATION.
That's a fail.

See, God's Grace is what God did, and not what you do later.

The GIFT of salvation, is not by works "lest any person will boast".

So, if you can ever understand that Salvation is all of God and none of you, then you have actually begun to comprehend the Blood of Jesus.
But not until.
Until you understand that we cannot be saved without God and yet He doesn’t violate our wills to save us you won’t understand well either the gospel or the focus of Scripture from beginning to end. Faith is a gift, and not one that's forced upon us-whether to accept it, or to keep it.
 
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Sidon

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Until you understand that we cannot be saved without God .

Your post is foolishness.

fhansen, Im posting the Blood of God as the Grace of God, as our eternal Redemption, in 50 posts since i came here a week ago.

Wake up, and read more carefully.
 
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fhansen

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God does not need you to fulfill the law.
He already did that for you, as a part of Jesus's ministry.
God doesn't need us to do anything-He doesn't need us to exist for that matter. God elected to do things the way He does-because He's God. And part of that way, when it comes to human salvation, is for Him to begin to fulfill the law in us as we turn to Him in faith. He justifies us IOW. I don't know why people miss this but again, it's a central theme of the New Covenant.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
Jer 31:33-34

Properly understood, He places His love, that fulfills His law (Rom 13:10), in our hearts.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5
 
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fhansen

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Your post is foolishness.

fhansen, Im posting the Blood of God as the Grace of God, as our eternal Redemption, in 50 posts since i came here a week ago.

Wake up, and read more carefully.
I understand your post now. We both maintain that man cannot be saved apart from God's grace, won for us by the blood of Christ. I insist that man can resist that grace, or reject it later on. We can still compromise and forfeit our justified state- by living very unjustly, mocking God and the blood of His Son. The will of man is never taken completely out of the picture.
 
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