How to walk in the Spirit.

[BNR32FAN]

I know a Catholic theologian who probably would agree with him, based on what I've heard him say about how the early church fathers interpreted scripture. And about taking symbolism literally etc.

It’s the early church fathers that refute his theology.

 

[fhansen]

The beginning is salvation by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. (salvation past)

Then that same salvation from the beginning grows in holiness as one walks with the Spirit in obedience. (salvation present)

And that same salvation from the beginning is completed at the resurrection. (salvation future)

Sure, it goes that way if we remain in him, enduring to the end. We find out then for sure if we were really numbered among the elect of not. Either way justification and sanctification are inseparable, the latter a continuation of the former.

 

[ozso]

I doubt that God is going to keep the born-again out of heaven based on doctrinal technicalities people have come with.

 

[fhansen]

No, it does not. The Greek word means to be declared "not guilty."

It is a judicial declaration by the Court of no guilt under the law.

Justification is "to be declared just," in right-standing with God's justice.

In the NT, the divine declaration of "not guilty" (a one-time event and permanent status) is because of faith (apart from works) in the atoning work of Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for your sin, giving you right-standing (righteousness) with God's justice, the righteousness (right-standing) of Jesus Christ being imputed (imparted) to you (Romans 5:18-19) by that faith.

"To be made just" is what follows the imputed righteousnesss of justification, in walking with the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification, growing in holiness (righteousness, justness).

Justification is remission of sin, declaration of not guilty, and imputed righteousness (right-standing with God's justice) of Jesus Christ.

I always kind of hope no one plays the “Greek card” anytime-and especially here in any case because the whole business of justification is a bit of a messy affair translation wise. I’d first of all submit that it’s a bit ironic that the majority of the original ancient churches were Greek speaking, in the east, where the gospel was spread in Greek and the official language of the celebration is most often Koine Greek to this day and yet they hold to the same basic position on justification as the RCC.

And while I’m strictly an amateur on this, I know that the Greek root word for most of the words used in the bible pertaining to righteousness (and there are many variations or derivatives with slightly different meanings) is dikaios which simply means righteous or just. The NIV, NRSV, and NKJV all translate Rom 5:18 using the term “justification”, meaning to be made just or righteous. The Greek is dikaiōsin:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. NIV

Rom 5:19 actually spells it out with two separate words, dikaioi katastathēsontai, which only translate as “made righteous”. The concept of strict imputation doesn't really fit here:
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. NIV

The word used for “declared righteous” in Rom 2:13 is dikaiōthēsontai, and this declaration or reckoning in any case is the direct result of obeying the law.
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. NIV

Or:
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. NRSV

And this idea of obedience being the reason one is said to be righteous is echoed in Rom 6:16, the Greek word for righteousness being dikaiosynēn :
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? NIV

And it’s interesting that both Rom 6:16 above and Gal 5:4 below place gaining righteousness in the future, related to obedience again, by the Sprit and not a righteousness that comes by the law. Being justified is dikaiousthe and righteousness here is dikaiosynēs:
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. NIV

A major difference between the old and new covenants is not that man is no longer obligated to be personally righteous under the new covenant, but that said righteousness is now finally achievable under the new, by the Spirit, under grace, in union with God. That's what it means to be made just.

 

[fhansen]

deleted post

 

[ozso]

People will keep themselves out of heaven for despising His will- for opposing and rejecting love to put it another way.

Are you referring to the born-again elect like I was?

 

[fhansen]

Are you referring to the born-again elect like I was?

Well, those numbered among the elect will be saved of course. But God, alone, knows with perfect certainty who they are, whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. So a person saying they're born again doesn't necessarily make it so but even if they are, we can also "die again"; we can taste of God's goodness and love and still turn back away from Him and to the world and the flesh. We can't predict our own perseverance to put it another way, and persevere we must according to the bible. Anyway, the will of man is never overridden; it's the "prize" so to speak and is only fully "bound" to God to the extent that we love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

[ozso]

Well, those numbered among the elect will be saved of course. But God, alone, knows with perfect certainty who they are, whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. So a person saying they're born again doesn't necessarily make it so but even if they are, we can also "die again"; we can taste of God's goodness and love and still turn back away from Him and to the world and the flesh. We can't predict our own perseverance to put it another way, and persevere we must according to the bible. Anyway, the will of man is never overridden; it's the "prize" so to speak and is only fully "bound" to God to the extent that we love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

I think it's going to come down to who wants to be there and who doesn't. I'm sure there are plenty who would be miserable being in the full presence of the Lord worshipping and serving Him continuously.

 

[fhansen]

I think it's going to come down to who wants to be there and who doesn't. I'm sure there are plenty who would be miserable being in the full presence of the Lord worshipping and serving Him continuously.

And yet it’s thought that a person can’t help worshipping Him once they meet Him “face to face”- He’s like the ultimate happiness drug, causing sheer exaltation, with no downside. But, yes, if we don’t even want to know Him, to know that goodness to begin with, then maybe a person thinks they’d be happier in a state permanently apart from Him, aka hell.

 

[ozso]

And yet it’s thought that a person can’t help worshipping Him once they meet Him “face to face”- He’s like the ultimate happiness drug, causing sheer exaltation, with no downside. But, yes, if we don’t even want to know Him, to know that goodness to begin with, then maybe a person thinks they’d be happier in a state permanently apart from Him, aka hell.

I think it isn't going to be any different for us than it was for the angels as far having a heart towards Him or against him.

 

[Sidon]

Of course it is.
"The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 13:9-10

"...sin is lawlessness." 1:John 3:4

Jesus said you must be born again.

 

[Sidon]

That partnership is the very essence of man’s righteousness. Jer 31:34

God's gift of righteousness isn't a partnership.
Its a Gift.
God isn't a "partner" regarding the born again, He is Their Father.

 

[Sidon]

You're not bothering to fully listen to God in His word. As I said, one doesn't even need to hear the law in order for grace to fulfill it, much less be "under the law". Read, scripture, with your mind even more open to truth.

Im not under the law.
Christ too care of that for me.
He didn't take care of it, so that i can go back to it.

 

[Sidon]

Empty words from a person who ignore scriptures.

Im not ignoring scripture, im only addressing your theology.
If you will bring it in line with the simple understanding that Christ is our righteousness, and we have Him in us, and so, we are to walk IN Him, in a renewed mind of correct faith, ..... SO, if you can get there in your believing, then we can agree.
Im ready when you are, BNR32FAN

 

[Sidon]

Every verse I’ve quoted that refutes your theology you say is a parable or it’s symbolic and not useful for formulating doctrine. In short you simply dismiss them.
See what I mean?

And the next time you wrongly divide NT verses, by trying to misuse (twist) the symbolic as literal, then what has happened to you, will happen again.
Listen, the word of God, is not a face value, comprehension. Its not like reading a dictionary or a magazine or a pulp fiction.
The Holy Bible, is a hidden maze of spiritual connections that you rightly divide by being able to spiritually discern.
The bible is a SPIRITUAL LIGHT, and to see it, you have to use the right tool., and "reading it", isn't the right tool.

 

[Clare73]

Sure, it goes that way if we remain in him, enduring to the end. We find out then for sure if we were really numbered among the elect of not.

What about:

"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guarnteeing our inheritance until the redemption (resurrection, John 6:39; Romans 8:23) of those who are God's possession. . ." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirits that we are God's children." (Romans 8:16)

Either way justification and sanctification are inseparable, the latter a continuation of the former.

Agreed. . .like the song says:
"Love and marriage, love and marriage,
Go together like a horse and carriage.
Dad was told by Mother,
'You can't have one without the other.' "

 

[Sidon]

This explanation ignores verses 4,5,and 7.

Verse 4 Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles to abide/remain in Him and tells them why they must abide/remain in Him. .

The verse becomes useless regarding the way you are trying to use use it.
See, you didnt recognize that its a symbolic verse, while its declaring something that has happened.

So to "abide "in Christ, has happened, as God put all the born again in there..
And once they are in there, (born again), then they must learn how to exist within the Kingdom of God, that is "in Christ"...
Being "In Christ" and being "born again" and being IN the Kingdom of God, and it being in you, is all the same thing.
And so, a born again person has to learn to to EXIST correctly in this Spiritual place.
This happens when the born again "renew their mind", so that their abiding does not lead to powerless Christianity, that is the sinning and confessing issue.
When a Christian is not abiding "in Christ" as the renewed mind, then their discipleship bears the fruit of sinning and confessing, and can't stop.

 

[fhansen]

What about:

"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guarnteeing our inheritance until the redemption (resurrection, John 6:39; Romans 8:23) of those who are God's possession. . ." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirits that we are God's children." (Romans 8:16)

Yes, that's all good, and helps serve as strong assurance that we're His, along with fruit being evidenced in our lives. It's still a subjective assessment to one degree or another, though, and we'll only know with absolutely certainty at the end. Meanwhile not all who think and say that they're His, who apply those verses to themselves, will of necessity and without doubt end up in heaven.

Agreed. . .like
"Love and marriage, love and marriage,
Go together like a horse and carriage.
Dad was told by Mother,
'You can't have one without the other.' "

I guess . Either way were made just/holy/righteous et al by both.

 

[fhansen]

Im not under the law.
Christ too care of that for me.
He didn't take care of it, so that i can go back to it.

He took care of it so that you can ultimately fulfill the law with Him, but not by being under it which we know doesn't work. Again, the law is right-we're the problem. God didn't reveal laws that reflected something other than what man should do. But again, we don't need to even hear the law, much less be under it, to fulfill it.

Obligation is good-it's good for you. We just can't do it on our own and God will finally, ultimately, get His way in that area. Justice is meant to be restored to his creation, beginning with His first-born, not merely ignored all of a sudden. No works of the law can make us just, that's just a crude attempt at doing on my own what I "should do", but cannot. God gives us righteousness, as we turn to Him in faith, and then, now partnered with Him, He can begin to bring to completion the work He began-in Eden, actually.

 

[fhansen]

God's gift of righteousness isn't a partnership.
Its a Gift.

It's both. Its a gift and a very human choice, to accept and act on that gift-or not. He's prompting us to be something, something only He can accomplish in us but something He wants us to participate in. Man is like a flower, something he didn't create himself and yet something, in his case, that he can nevertheless prevent from blooming. That interference began in Eden and God's been working on humankind ever since. He wants us all to flower. That's why he sent His Son. And while He doesn't need our permission-for anything- He wants it nonetheless-for our own highest good. That's why He allowed the interference to begin with-He wants our choice involved.

God isn't a "partner" regarding the born again, He is Their Father.

"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
"...with God all things are possible." Matt 19:26
"I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Phil 4":13

We're also said to enter fellowship with God our Father. And Jesus is characterized as our friend. And we all know who He is.