How to walk in the Spirit.

[ozso]

We’ve already covered all this. You’re choosing to ignore way too many passages in the Bible.

What passages is he ignoring? Maybe if you list five or ten, he will address them. I'd be very interested in seeing what his answers would be.

 

[fhansen]

ive answered this already.
Go and read it again.
There is your answer.

It’s a very simple question, and your posts seem to suggest that you’re speaking of an imputed righteousness only, and that it’s ok to say your not a sinner as long as you see yourself as not being one now? Or imagine yourself to not be one? IDK. So do you sin, or not?? There’s no need for me to go back, with such an easy question to clarify here.

 

[fhansen]

What passages is he ignoring? Maybe if you list five or ten, he will address them. I'd be very interested in seeing what his answers would be.

Thats the problem, I’ve listed way more than that!

 

[Sidon]

Yes, MADE RIGHTEOUS. Not with some sort of pretend righteousness, with no real change other than a positional change in status. Christ did way more for you than that.

The proof of salvation is being born again.

Self effort, is not proof a person is born again.
Jesus didnt say, "you must be water baptized, and you must keep the law and commandments".
Jesus only says...."You MUST be born again".
See that "must"?
He never says this about anything else.

See, you have this idea that fruit bearing is how you can spot a real believer.
Well, im bearing a lot of Fruit on this forum, since i showed up, however, its not my fruit that has made me the "righteousness of God, in Christ". Its God's Blood that has made me Righteous and keeps me Righteous.

Listen, ...because you read a verse that says...>"you shall know them, by their fruit, (good deeds)j", you have not seen beyond this... yet.
James even corresponds to this idea by saying that : "i'll prove to YOU my Faith, by my works"....
So, thats all true....

And how to you spot these deceivers?
You simply notice if they Give Christ full credit for saving them and keeping them saved, or if they dont.
But, you have another situation that you have not realized, because you have not been taught something you need to understand.

= The DEVIL, is not a myth.
The DEVIL understands the bible, and has knowledge of the Word of God, even before the Apostle's letters were written, and even before the Old Testament was written.
Its the DEVIL who changed the word of God in the Garden of Eden, when Satan said..>"hath God SAID".
So, the Devil knows that you and many like you, are looking for SELF EFFORT and for a person to "sound like a Christian" as your idea of how to spot a real one.
But see, the Devil knows this, and that is why you have this verse in your NT.

"the Devil comes as an ANGEL OF LIGHT".

and that is why you have this verse in you NT......

"and the devil's ministers come as ministers of RIGHTEOUSNESS">.

So, see those 2?
That is the apostle PAUL explaining to YOU, that the Devil's own will come to you, as a PREACHER, as a TEACHER, as a DENOMINATION, and as a corrupted bible.

"spiritual fruit", can be FAKED, and the Devil's people, his MINISTERS, his PULPIT LEADERS, his "christian denominations', His Pastors, Bishop's and similar...... fake it every Sunday - Saturday.
And many fake it on "christian forums".
Believe it.

 

[fhansen]

And when you "act upon that Gift" God accepts this FAITH ONE TIME, and "faith is counted as Righteousness".= "Justification BY faith".
The proof, the only proof, that He did, is by being being born again.
Being born again, is the only real proof a person is a Christian, and that is because its the only situation that a person can't cause, .. as only God can give the "new birth".

We know them by their fruits, the most important being the love that produces the rest. So, again, Gods church can rightly teach,
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

The New Covenant in a nutshell.

 

[Sidon]

The New Covenant in a nutshell.

The NT in a "Nutshell" is "righteousness".
Its how this is caused.

"the Gift of Salvation">

The core of the Bible is "RIGHTEOUSNESS".

The OT shows you the LAW that is God's Holy Mirror that reflects our UNRIGHTEOUSNESS back at us.
It is our "school teacher".. that leads us to the solution, that is THE CROSS.
The NT is God's GRACE that provides God's Righteousness based on God as Christ offering it as "the Gift of Righteousness" and "the Gift of Salvation".

 

[fhansen]

The NT in a "Nutshell" is "righteousness".
Its how this is caused.

"the Gift of Salvation">

The core of the Bible is "RIGHTEOUSNESS".

The OT shows you the LAW that is God's Holy Mirror that reflects our UNRIGHTEOUSNESS back at us.
It is our "school teacher".. that leads us to the solution, that is THE CROSS.
The NT is God's GRACE that provides God's Righteousness based on God as Christ offering it as "the Gift of Righteousness" and "the Gift of Salvation".

Yes, and righteousness is love- in a nutshell. And this is why the greatest commandments are what they are, BTW. And the Ten Commandments, based on that same love, are still right, holy, spiritual, and good as Paul tells us in Rom 7. We’re the problem, not the law, even though by itself it has no power to justify us. And Jesus didn’t reiterate and teach the greatest commandments so that we should ignore them. He just finally gives us the only true means to fulfill them, by the Spirit, by His power.

 

[ozso]

I think you should give more thought to what you’re really saying. Is sin ok, or not?

I think you should give more thought to what I've really been saying. I already said sin is appalling and that all sin is bad etc. So obviously I don't think sin is okay.

Will it keep us from heaven, or not?

Will sin keep a born again Christian from heaven? I think if that's the case, then we're all going to hell. Unless what you're really asking is, will really bad persistent unremorseful unrepentant sin keep a born again Christians from heaven? In that case, I'd say anyone who's into really bad persistent unremorseful unrepentant sin, who feels no conviction from the Holy Spirit, probably isn't a born again Christian.

 

[fhansen]

I think you should give more thought to what I've really been saying. I already said sin is appalling and that all sin is bad etc. So obviously I don't think sin is okay.Christian.

So sin is still not ok but it doesn’t keep us out of heaven, even though sin is what caused all the problems between God and man to begin with. Sounds like a distinction without much of a difference but, ok.

Will sin keep a born again Christian from heaven? I think if that's the case, then we're all going to hell. Unless what you're really asking is, will really bad persistent unremorseful unrepentant sin keep a born again Christians from heaven? In that case, I'd say anyone who's into really bad persistent unremorseful unrepentant sin, who feels no conviction from the Holy Spirit, probably isn't a born again Christian.

Or didn’t stay one-scripture certainly indicates that we can die again, fail to persevere, etc. But if a born again Christian does sin as you say, how much or what kind of sin can he commit before he probably isn’t a born again Christian after all?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

There is no such thing as Christ leaving you, once He is inside the born again.
There is no such thing as God no longer living in "the temple of the Holy Spirit", after He is INSIDE a person's SPIRIT who is born again as "One With God and Christ".

Check your NT.
Notice there is no verse that even suggests that once God, Christ , and the Holy Spirit are in you, they will leave you because you misbehave, or miss a Sunday, or tell a lie.

Salvation is not so fragile as a person's behavior, as you seem to believe.
Its actually as Eternal as the BLood of God that was shed to cause it.

You can't "fall away" from being born again.

Your right .Christ would never leave. Some leave Him. This whole time I am speaking of apostasy, not forgivable sins. Apostasy is the unforgivable sin.
Be blessed.

 

[fhansen]

The OP apparently maintains that he's not a sinner. That "resolves" the problem for himself, I guess. But Jesus didn't come and teach and suffer and die and rise again to make no real change-in us. He came to replace our hearts of stone with hearts of flesh (Ez 26) by addressing the primary and most appalling and anomalous sin, that of creation-of man-being spiritually disconnected from his creator. He came to reconcile us with God so that, from that justified state, we can begin to be the people He created us to be. And that doesn't include sin. But the relationship, and therefore ourselves, are still imperfect in this life, not to be fully completed until the next (1 Cor 13:12), while it nonetheless must begin here. And that means that some sin is inevitable as we continue to struggle against it, God wanting us to ultimately decide for ourselves whether or not we’ll align fully with His will. So the church teaches that, for one thing, “Grace is a participation in the life of God.” Some related teachings continue:

MAN CANNOT POSSIBLY BE SAVED APART FROM GRACE:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52 [Augustine]

MAN’S FREEDOM IS NOT OVERIDDEN BY GOD:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

And while God judges by the heart, we have some criteria for knowing what He expects-and according to Scripture that doesn’t include wanton, persistent, grave sin that's so intrinsically opposed to and incompatible with Himself and love that it constitutes a tuning away from Him. That would amount to rejecting grace.

 

[ozso]

So sin is still not ok but it doesn’t keep us out of heaven, even though sin is what caused all the problems between God and man to begin with. Sounds like a distinction without much of a difference but, ok.

Or didn’t stay one-scripture certainly indicates that we can die again, fail to persevere, etc. But if a born again Christian does sin as you say, how much or what kind of sin can he commit before he probably isn’t a born again Christian after all?

The way I see it either someone is born again or they're not. A person can live like a saint and not be born again. Asking how bad does a person have to be to get kicked out, is like asking how good does a person have to be to stay in.

 

[fhansen]

The way I see it either someone is born again or they're not. A person can live like a saint and not be born again. Asking how bad does a person have to be to get kicked out, is like asking how good does a person have to be to stay in.

Um...yes! And some even say that a person can live like the devil and still be born again. Either way it's a very sad state of affairs when Christianity has descended to the point where the believer is no longer thought to be obligated to be personally righteous in order to see God. That's the opposite of the gospel. Fortunately most Christians don't live as if that were true, regardless of professed theology.

 

[ozso]

Um...yes! And some even say that a person can live like the devil and still be born again. Either way it's a very sad state of affairs when Christianity has descended to the point where the believer is no longer thought to be obligated to be personally righteous in order to see God. That's the opposite of the gospel. Fortunately most Christians don't live as if that were true, regardless of professed theology.

There's nothing new about this and other forms of pseudo-christianity. How many people think they're Christian because their parents were Catholic and they had been baptized? I'm sure the Catholic church is full of those who profess Christ who aren't born again. Even those among the clergy. In my opinion real Christians aren't going to live like the devil. A real Christian is always going to recognize sin in their life and God won't test them to the point where they become lost, and will provide a way out for them. 1 Corinthians 10:13.

 

[fhansen]

A real Christian is always going to recognize sin in their life and God won't test them to the point where they become lost, and will provide a way out for them. 1 Corinthians 10:13.

And here we'd disagree. God doesn't force us to turn to Him, or to remain in Him, which is why Christ admonishes us to remain in Him. It's that obligation thing.

Anyway, thinking one is Christian doesn't necessarily make one a Christian-and being trapped in the cultural-Christian mentality is something the weak and lazy often do, those who don't seek God for themselves. And asking, seeking, knocking is the only way to find Him-even as He prompts even that in us. But in a different but real way the OP is actually asserting something similar- that what we think about ourselves vis a vis God is what makes us righteous, and makes us His child.

 

[ozso]

And here we'd disagree. God doesn't force us to turn to Him, or to remain in Him, which is why Christ admonishes us to remain in Him. Its that obligation thing.

You're disagreeing with St. Paul then, because what I said is in accordance with 1 Corinthians 10:13. Which doesn't have anything to do with God forcing us.


.

 

[fhansen]

You're disagreeing with St. Paul then, because what I said is in accordance with 1 Corinthians 10:13. Which doesn't have anything to do with God forcing us.


.

You’re assuming that everyone who’s ever taken those words and applied them to themselves was/is saved.

 

[ozso]

You’re assuming that everyone who’s ever taken those words and applied them to themselves was/is saved.

What?

 

[fhansen]

What?

No one knows if Paul was addressing themselves as individuals, or even if every Corinthian who first read/heard those words from his letter was necessarily saved for that matter. The elect are the elect, and its redundant to affirm this but, yes, those words apply to them. But no one knows with 100% certainty that they’re numbered among that group. God, alone, knows perfectly whose names are written in the Book of Life, while many who think they are, won’t be. We can’t predict our own perseverance for that matter.

 

[ozso]

No one knows if Paul was addressing themselves as individuals, or even if every Corinthian who first read/heard those words from his letter was necessarily saved for that matter. The elect are the elect, and its redundant to affirm this but, yes, those words apply to them. But no one knows with 100% certainty that they’re numbered among that group. God, alone, knows perfectly whose names are written in the Book of Life, while many who think they are, won’t be. We can’t predict our own perseverance for that matter.

In other words your theology contains a certain amount of ambiguity and uncertainty.

Whereas the OP's theology is quite direct and certain.