How to walk in the Spirit.

Sidon said:

ell, Salvation is a positional change
Its also an eternal change.
Its a birth into God's Spirit. (Born again).
So, that is definitely a change.
A person goes from "lost sinner" to "saved Saint".
A person goes from being a child of the devil to a Son of God.
A person goes from damned to Righteous.

And God does all of this. Philippians 1:6

Our part is to receive it.
We receive this "Gift of Salvation" and "Gift of Righteousness".

After this happens (born again) we learn how to exist in correct faith, which is to "work out your salvation".

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We're told over and over again in scripture what we must do to gain eternal life-and you seem to overlook much of it. Faith, itself, isn't the righteousness that justifies and saves us, as if it replaces personal righteousness in man, or is the equivalent of righteousness, rather faith introduces and connects us to Righteousness, who makes us just. We're saved by being made salvageable, by being justified, something we can't do on our own. Righteousness that is born of that faith, love that is born of that faith, of that relationship, defines man's justice/righteousness. Of course God does all this. We don't even exist without Him and certainly could never bring ourselves to the justice or righteousness that makes us right in His eyes. That failure of man to fulfill the law is the lesson of the Old Covenant. Our part is to accept, as you say, and to cooperate. He wants that-doesn't need that-but wants it.

Sidon said:

Righteousness is God's Blood.
If possible....then just think of God's Righteousness as The Cross, as its from the Cross, you find God doing what is necessary to deal with the sin of the world.

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And love defines the righteousness that would do that, that would cause God to shed blood in human flesh, to suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death at the hands of His own creation if that's what it takes to prove a love so wide and long and high and deep that we can only just barely begin to fathom it, and, hopefully, turn to and embrace it for ourselves, that holiness, that righteousness.
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." Eph 3:18

fhansen said:

It will be according to God's judgment -of how well I did with whatever He gave me. And the criteria, for those with understanding, is this:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

You're saying, if I understand correctly, that if someone gets hit by a bus tomorrow he must have faith, or else he'll be cast into hell, eternal torment. I'm only saying, along with scripture, that he must have more than that.

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No I'm not saying anything in this case. I'm just trying to understand.

It sounds like you're saying if you didn't do a good enough job here on earth you'll be cast into hell.

However, "the criteria, for those with understanding, is this: "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

I don't understand what you're saying.

Sidon said:

What yo are describing is a person who is religious, trying to keep themselves saved.
That would be a believer who is "fallen from Grace". and is in "the Flesh".
Thats most of them.
Very few believers, in this world, believe that the Blood of Christ is their salvation, and that is why they always talk about what they are trying to DO.
Thats "Legalsim", and this actually denies the Cross.
If a person teaches it, then they are this. Galatians 1:8

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So a believer can lose their salvation? And more specifically, lose their salvation if they don't get things perfectly right?

fhansen said:

We're told over and over again in scripture what we must do to gain eternal life-and you seem to overlook much of it. Faith, itself, isn't the righteousness that justifies and saves us, as if it replaces personal righteousness in man, or is the equivalent of righteousness, rather faith introduces and connects us to Righteousness, who makes us just. We're saved by being made salvageable, by being justified, something we can't do on our own. Righteousness that is born of that faith, love that is born of that faith, of that relationship, defines man's justice/righteousness. Of course God does all this. We don't even exist without Him and certainly could never bring ourselves to the justice or righteousness that makes us right in His eyes. That failure of man to fulfill the law is the lesson of the Old Covenant. Our part is to accept, as you say, and to cooperate. He wants that-doesn't need that-but wants it.

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That doesn't sound too far from Sidon's theology as I understand it. However in that theology the only way that God is going to see us as righteous is through the blood and only the blood.

Sidon said:

Easily.
You can take the "poll" for yourself.

First, let me show you how Paul describes these people, who are born again, yet have stopped trusting in Christ to KEEP THEM SAVED.

See, thats the PROOF, as that is their spiritual/faith problem.

listen.....ITS NOT, if you believe that Christ is the Savior, but rather its , Do you believe that Christ Keeps you saved or not.
And 99% of born again Christians do no believe He does, and that is why they they will tell you that they can lose their salvation.
They will tell you that you can lose yours, also.
And that is the PROOF that they have lost trust in CHRIST, as they do not believe Christ keeps them saved.

Paul, in Galatians, says that these believers, are "bewitched", and "fallen from Grace" and are "in the Flesh".
Paul is correct.

Now, lets establish Salvation.
Its God coming here, as Jesus....... to eternally reconcile us to God. He did. Its done, 2000 yrs ago.
That is Salvation. Its the completed blood atonement.
God offers it at a GIFT. Its this. John 3:16

Now, this completed blood atonement does not include anyone's self effort, or commandment keeping, or works of any kind.
And once a person begins to try to add them to the Cross, they are doing this to try to stay saved, or to keep from losing their salvation.

So, you find most believers, are like this, and that is why they will argue until they explode that you can lose your salvaiton.
See, if they trusted Christ, they would trust Him and Him alone to keep them saved.
They dont. They DO NOT.
And that is about 99% of Christians.

Its no different on this Forum.
Its no different on any forum.
Its no different in MOST denominations.

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What I've noticed as a trend here is those saying the opposite. That most Christians believe once saved always saved. Which they often phrase as "most Christians these days believe/teach that it's okay to sin".

pescador said:

So you've taken a poll and thereby have determined that very few believers, in this world, believe that the Blood of Christ is their salvation. Can you show us the actual data, or is this just your opinion? Have you ever read this: “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own?" Matthew 7:1-3

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Here's a poll of sorts. As far as I can tell this ministry teaches what Sidon teaches.

Quiz: Bibleline Ministries - 'Am I going to Heaven?'

Am I going to heaven quiz results:

89543 passed.

107127 failed.

Bibleline Ministries

MMXX said:

No I'm not saying anything in this case. I'm just trying to understand.

It sounds like you're saying if you didn't do a good enough job here on earth you'll be cast into hell.

However, "the criteria, for those with understanding, is this: "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

I don't understand what you're saying.

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Hmm. It's been said in many ways on this thread IMO but I'll try to sum it up. Under the New Covenant man is still obligated to be personally righteous-that doesn't change. Sin separated man from God to begin with and will continue to in the future. When the time was ripe Jesus came to address this problem once and for all, to take away the sins of the world. From our perspective faith is the cure, because it places us back into right relationship with God. Justice, itself, demands this because man is lost and disordered-sinful- without it. So God is immensely pleased with faith, this turning of man back to Himself. The Old Covenant served, for one thing, to teach us one important lesson, that man, on his own, cannot be good enough to please God. Man’s real “job” is to come into relationship with Him first of all, a relationship of humble love, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. To the extent that we do this, becoming like God, who is love, all the harm that one human causes to another would disappear; love excludes sin by its nature (Rom 13:8-10). That love, love of God and neighbor, the greatest commandments, is the goal of the new Covenant. That would make our obedience and righteousness flow naturally and willingly, of its own accord. If Adam was ready for it in Eden, he never would’ve disobeyed. And faith is the doorway to this love, because faith is the entrance way to God for man. But love is the core, the heart and soul of Christianity. It's the motivation behind everything Jesus said and did-it’s the reason why we need to believe in God, so we can come to love Him -and neighbor-as He first loved us (1 John 4:19).


But some have come to focus so exclusively and myopically on faith, as if it, by itself, is almost a single one-time magical cure for all that ails fallen man-almost as if faith defines, or replaces the need for, righteousness for man and nothing else is necessary in order to be right with God, and therefore saved. But the New Covenant does not abolish our need to fulfill the law, rather it finally provides us with the only authentic means to fulfill it, by the Spirit, with God rather than apart from Him. Man’s obligation to be righteous can only be fulfilled by love. Man is obligated to love. And that love is a gift, a work of God’s in us, and a human choice, to accept and embrace and live that gift. To the extent that we do, God’s universe comes back into order. That’s what He wants, that’s what He expects, from and for us. Because there’s no greater gift. It's the gift of Himself. And love acts, for the good of others, by its nature, as Jesus did; it's the opposite of legalism.

Sidon said:

Is your verse from the book of mormon? or JW?
Where did that one come from.


Listen, at the Judgement seat of Christ, you'll be judged for "what you did in the body".
The body is the "body of Christ", and "what you did" is your lifetime of fruit.
Jesus will look at it, and some will be wood, hay, stubble, and some will be the good stuff.
The Good stuff, is all the times you did something for God, as a work, and your motive was true., vs, all the times you did something that was "christian"< and you did it because you wanted the people around you, or on a forum, to think of you as something speicial.

So, at the bema seat, God is going to examine your MOTIVE< and not your works.
Did you do all that "christian stuff" because you had a true heart of service, or did you do ti because you were filled with a "look at me" self righteousness, mentality.

See, you can fake fruit down here, but up there, it's all REVEALED.

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If you understand my post just previous to this one, you'll understand the last line. Love is the opposite of legalism. When love is your motive, everything you do is righteous-and aligned with God's will. That quote above comes right from the heart of our faith, for someone who knows God,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

And that's why Jesus could tell us in Matt 22:40 that, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." To love. Then read 1 Cor 13. Love never says, "Look at me."

fhansen said:

If you understand my post just previous to this one, you'll understand the last line. Love is the opposite of legalism. When love is your motive, everything you do is righteous-and aligned with God's will. That quote above comes right from the heart of our faith, for someone who knows God,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

And that's why Jesus could tell us in Matt 22:40 that, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." To love. Then read 1 Cor 13. Love never says, "Look at me."

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Since you're making it out to be a quote from someone/something, we are wondering what the source is.

MMXX said:

Since you're making it out to be a quote from someone/something, we are wondering what the source is.

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The quote is from a 16th century believer in Spain. He was known by the title John of the Cross. Here's another quote, from Basil of Caesarea this time, a 4th century believer in this case,
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."