How to walk in the Spirit.

BNR32FAN · Jun 10, 2021

MMXX said:
So more along the lines of God letting you leave your salvation, rather than God taking it from you?

I think John 15:2 is an example of God taking away a person’s salvation.

Clare73 · Jun 10, 2021

Hmm said:
Interesting conversation so far, and I hope I don't ruin that!

There have been differences of opinion expressed on whether we are declared righteousness or made righteousness. fhansen's drawing a parallel to Adam and the Fall made sense to me: we
aren't just categorised in a legal declaration as sinners after Adam's original sin,

Nor does the NT present such.

We inherited Adams sinful nature as weak and sinful creatures, "by nature (birth) objects of wrath." (Ephesians 2:3)

But imputed to us is Adam's guilt, the cause our condemnation. (Romans 5:18)

Our declaration is to "not guilty" in justification by faith apart from works. (Romans 4:3-5)

we were actually born into a world which is riddled with institutional sin such as unequal poverty as well as being weak and sinful creatures ourselves. So sinfulness is a very real thing and so therefore it seems to me

You do realize the measure for interpreting Scripture is all Scripture.

righteousness must be an equally real thing and not just an abstract legalistic reclassification if our status before God.

Our "reclassification" before God is justification, by the application of Jesus' atonement to our sin to pay its penalty.
The declaration of "not guilty" in justifiction and the crediting (imputation) of Jesus' righteousness is no more abstract that Jesus' atonement was astract.

To credit (impute) does not mean to impart. Jesus' righteousness was credited to us.

Only the righteousness of sanctification (set apart from sin) is actual holiness, the credited/imputed righteousness of justification is right-standing with God's justice due to payment of the penalty for your sin.

So as I understand it then, we are made righteousness are become new creations. The Holy Spirit is now in us and it is in cooperation with the HS that we are transformed or sanctified. And this is an ongoing process - we can stop cooperating and return to a life without God whenever we like if we choose to. God has given us this freedom.

Jesus reveals that he loses none of all the Father gives him (John 6:39).
If we return to a life without God, we were never given to Jesus by God in the first place.

A question I have is that maintaining our sanctification is an obligation and responsibility so how do we best deal with that?

"Believe" (faith) and "obey"are the same word (peitho) in the Greek.

Sanctification is growth in faith through obedience in the Holy Spirit, obedience to Jesus' two NT commandments (Matthew 22:37-41).

I can imagine that if we are a perfectionist we may be paralysed by this thought because we can never achieve perfection in this life. The only solution I can think of comes from the great commandments to love God and to love others as ourselves especially the as ourselves part. Not merely to excuse ourselves all the time but to employ our new found capacity to cooperate with God as He builds His kingdom as best we can but to be kind to ourselves when we fail or don't do as well as we'd hoped.

Hmm · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
You do realize the measure for interpreting Scripture is all Scripture.

You mention one of the words but omit the other. Everyone who reads Scripture is inevitably interpreting it otherwise it would have no meaning for them at all

Clare73 said:
So as I understand it then

Thanks for demonstrating my point above

Clare73 said:
Jesus reveals that he loses none of all the Father gives him

He doesn't lose us but we may lose Him.

Clare73 · Jun 10, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
I did provide scriptures to prove that not everyone remains in Christ. I also provided scriptures from Paul himself that indicate that both Paul and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and Christ is capable of denying them.

"Capable" and "actual" are two different things.
We do what we actually prefer.
Because of the Holy Spirit, Paul and Timothy would never actually prefer to deny Christ.
For them, that exists only in hypotheticals.

Tares do not apply to people who fail to abide in Christ.

"Like tares," not tares themselves. . .like those who are in the kingdom but not of the kingdom, as are apostates.
"Abide" here refers, as is seen in other places, to those in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

Jesus said the tares are placed in the church by the evil one, He also said no one can come to Me unless The Father draws him. So the people who fail to abide/remain in Christ are not tares because they were not planted there by the evil one they were drawn by The Father.

Agreed. . .they are in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

Clare73 · Jun 10, 2021

Hmm said:
You mention one of the words but omit the other.

The measure for intepreting Scripture is interpreting all Scripture in agreement with one another.

Everyone who reads Scripture is inevitably interpreting it

Straw man.

otherwise it would have no meaning for them at all

Interpretation must be governed by the teaching of all Scripture, not just one's interpretion of a passage.

Thanks for demonstrating my point above

Those are not my words.

He doesn't lose us but we may lose Him.

No one can snatch them out of his hand. (John 10:28)
"No" excludes oneself.

fhansen · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
Straw man.

non sequitur

Clare73 said:
It's not about the "truth." It's about the language.

He actually sometimes used even more "descriptive" language as I understand it while our translations may be softer. In any case, yes, I get tired of the misuse and overuse of the born-again term from those who claim 100% certainty of salvation. I believe that causes more confusion and is more harmful than any language I might've used. Folks just need to get real with themselves IMO.

Clare73 said:
Kinda' gives the lie to your signature.

That's a non-sequitur too since I'll always admit that I'm far from being perfected in love-while the statement holds true nonetheless.

Hmm · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
Straw man.

You keep saying this which is making me worried that you are a hungry hippyish kind of horse man.

Clare73 said:
Interpretation must be governed by the teaching of all Scripture, not just one's interpretion of a passage.

You're just pushing the interpretation back one level - teachers can only impart their own understanding or interpretation.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
And you know that he did not, how?
And that negates being translated to the third heaven where he received it, how?

Im not sure who taught you that Paul received the doctrine for the Church when He had his revelation of Heaven.
Whomever that is, you should stop following.
Is it one of those Greek translators you worship?

Listen?
The revelation that Paul talks about when he saw, or went to heaven, is THAT Revelation.
Not the teaching of Church Doctrine that Jesus gave Him, when Christ called him apart and Paul went to Arabia for 3 yrs to learn all that we now understand as New Testament, Doctrine.

Clare73 · Jun 10, 2021

Sidon said:
The revelation that Paul talks about when he saw, or went to heaven, is THAT Revelation.

And you know it was only that, how?

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive?

Yes, that happens once and forever, when we are born again.
We kneel at the Cross, Trusting in Christ...repenting of our unbelief, and God instantly accepts our faith to make us "the Righteousness of God, in Christ".

This is Christ's Blood , as the BLood Atonement being provided, and it accomplishes our Righteousness for us.
The slang for this is "wash in the Blood". "of the Lamb".
The redeemed are : "BLOOD BOUGHT".
And that happens exactly once., and it continues, for as long as God lives.
Its a ONE TIME, Sacrifice of Christ, being given to us that resolves all our sin, by us becoming Christ's Righteousness, and Jesus becoming our sin.
This is to be "made Righteous"., And this is created by a "one time Eternal Sacrifice."
See that word "ETERNAL".
That is how long it lasts, once the blood of Jesus is applied to a BELIEVER.
And how do you know if its been applied?
The person is BORN AGAIN, and becomes a "new creation" IN CHRIST".

That is the PROOF< they now have ETERNAL LIFE.

Water can't do that for you.
Church membership can't do that for you.
Billy Graham, Mary, The Pope, Self Effort, can't do that for you.
Trying to "abide in the vine" by works of self effort, can't do that for you.

Jesus said "you MUST be born again". and when a person is, then God has given them His very own Righteousness, and they become "ONE WITH GOD< In Christ".
And they become...

"As Christ IS....so, are the born again IN THIS WORLD">...

So, does Christ have sin?
And all the born again are IN CHRIST.
See that?

You have a faith problem., bnr32fan.
You think you are capable of doing for yourself only what God can do for you, using His own shed blood.

Clare73 · Jun 10, 2021

Hmm said:
You keep saying this which is making me worried that you are a hungry hippyish kind of horse man.

I'm sure there's a thought in there somewhere.

You're just pushing the interpretation back one level - teachers can only impart their own understanding or interpretation.

Back to the level of correctly handling the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)
by interepreting all of it in agreement with all, so that it doesn't give the lie to itself.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
No "corrupted gospel" in Jude.
What is corrupt is their practice of lasciviousness in the name of the grace of God.

The only evidence , the true evidence of being saved, is if you are born again.

And you have your understanding of JUDE , exactly backwards.
JUDE is teaching that liars, and deceivers, came in, and taught that the real Grace of God, when taught correctly, is "licentiousness".

In other words.....the devil created this idea that the Actual Grace of God, if taught correctly , is turning it into license.

Many are deceived by this misunderstanding, and you find them all over forums, shouting about OSAS, and Cheap Grace.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
Back to the level of correctly handling the Scritures (2 Timothy 2:15).

Try to remember that you only use the Greek.

That's a friendly little reminder, for you.

Hmm · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
I'm sure there's a thought in there somewhere.

I was just wondering why you keep asking for straw man.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

fhansen said:
He taught-much- by word and deed.

Yes, Jesus taught much by word and deed.

Here is what you are not seeing.
The BIBLE is not "theology".
Theology, is how a person interprets the Bible, as their BELIEF SYSTEM.
That is "theology".

Paul teaches DOCTRINE, not theology.

What Paul teaches, ... just like what Jesus taught, is then turned into "theology" that becomes a denomination, a cult, a religion.. a heresy.

Clare73 · Jun 10, 2021

Sidon said:
Try to remember that you only use the Greek.

That's a friendly little reminder, for you.

And back to Hmm's "the level of interpreting Scripture":
"Back to the level of correctly handling the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)
by interepreting all of it in agreement with all so that it doesn't give the lie to itself."

One favor deserves another. . .

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

Ligurian said:
Matthew 23:8-10

28% is not most of the New Testament.

72% of the New Testament:

What do you make of "The First Paul" theory?

Your math is not based on the number of Epistles.
Its based on the number of words in the NT
So, that math is a fail.

Just compare the number of Epistles that Paul wrote, vs, James, Jude, Mark, Peter.
The Act's is only ONE.
So, its not how long is the ONE EPISTLE, its Who wrote most of them. = PAUL.
But moreso, its who gave you all the Church Doctrine...= PAUL

And, i have no idea what the "first paul " theory is, but if you state it, i'll respond, if i see your post.
np.

Here is what Paul wrote.
Compare that to John or Peter or Jude or Mark, etc.
-

Romans Church at Rome
First Corinthians Church at Corinth
Second Corinthians Church at Corinth
Galatians Church at Galatia
Ephesians Church at Ephesus
Philippians Church at Philippi
Colossians Church at Colossae
First Thessalonians Church at Thessalonica 1Th
Second Thessalonians Church at Thessalonica Thess 2Th
First Timothy Saint Timothy
Second Timothy Saint Timothy
Titus Saint Titus
Philemon Saint Philemon
Hebrews

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

Ligurian said:
The men Jesus chose were given to Him by the Father. Human teachers are not the Good Shepherd. Jesus is the only Good Shepherd, and no one teaches His sheep but Him.

Only a couple of things wrong with what you wrote.

1.) Paul was chosen by Jesus, when Jesus was back in Heaven. So, God didnt give Paul to Jesus.
Jesus chose Paul.

2.) God gives.......Pastors, Evangelists, Teachers.......etc.....for the 'perfecting"....""""PERFECTING""" of the Saints"..

So, if you want to be perfect in your FAITH, so that you can exist as the fullness of the stature of Christ, then you have to be taught.

Christ Taught the Apostles. The Apostles taught the 1st Churches. And now, 2000 yrs later, the Teachers teach you what they taught, so that you can become "perfected".
However, you have to know if a teacher is from God or from the Devil.
I teach how you can know that,.....
SO...
If you are not careful, you'll follow a FALSE teacher who does not follow Paul, and you'll end up thinking that water saved you, or that God causes some to go to hell by not letting them trust in Jesus.
All sorts of man made "doctrine" like that is waiting to ruin your faith and your life.
This is explained in Hebrews 13:9.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
And that is:
"Back to the level of correctly handling the Scritures (2 Timothy 2:15)
by interepreting all of it in agreement with all."
One favor deserves another. . .

Unsaved religious people, who try to "Interpret" the Scriptures, according to their own self righteousness, began all the denominations that teach that you can "lose your salvation".
Did you know that?
Now you do.

BNR32FAN · Jun 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
"Capable" and "actual" are two different things.
We do what we actually prefer.
Because of the Holy Spirit, Paul and Timothy would never actually prefer to deny Christ.
For them, that exists only in hypotheticals.
"Like tares," not tares themselves. . .like those who are in the kingdom but not of the kingdom, as are apostates.
"Abide" here refers, as is seen in other places, to those in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

Agreed. . .they are in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

That’s quite the scriptural acrobatics there but this isn’t the Olympics. If you put half as much effort in just accepting the word of God for what it actually says you wouldn’t have to go thru all this mumbo jumbo that has absolutely no weight to it.

Paul made it absolutely clear that people grieve the Holy Spirit so saying that “they won’t prefer to” is just your opinion. The fact remains that they are capable of turning away from Christ. Jesus made it absolutely clear that people will fall away, He made it clear that ONLY those who remain in Him and endure to the end will be saved, He also made it clear that some will not remain in Him and yet you refuse to accept it at every turn. No matter how hard you try you can’t make the word of God into what you want it to be, it simply is what it is. Refusing to accept it doesn’t change it at all.

How to walk in the Spirit.

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