How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

[Astrid]

I've found there's enough wiggle room in those passages, since we don't know if they are talking about the internal or external diameter. Depending on the thickness of the vessel, using the internal diameter for one and the external for the other measurement could work.

Right! And who would think of needing to rationalize so,
if they did not first notice from outside source that there
is an obvious inaccuracy.

There is no way that " 30 cubits" is an accurate number.
So the question really is not whether the bible is accurate,
but how inaccurate it can be and still be perfect.

 

[Opdrey]

I've found there's enough wiggle room in those passages, since we don't know if they are talking about the internal or external diameter. Depending on the thickness of the vessel, using the internal diameter for one and the external for the other measurement could work.

In reality it's not that bad of an "estimation". 3 is pretty close to 3.14 and given that they weren't writing a math treatise it really wasn't that onerous.

 

[Opdrey]

1 Kings 7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

If the molten sea was slightly elliptical, everything fits.

Long Axis = 10
Short Axis = 9.000[whatever]
Circumference = 30

"round all about" sounds more like a circle.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sorry, but that goes against a more accurate translation:

23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

Notice you gave me two of the the three parameters of an ellipse: perimeter and long axis?

What is the short axis though?

Your "more accurate translation" didn't tell you, did it?

 

[Opdrey]

Your "more accurate translation" didn't tell you, did it?

Does that normally stop you?

 

[AV1611VET]

"round all about" ...

Definition of "round:"

Round:
1. shaped like or approximately like a circle or cylinder
2. shaped like or approximately like a sphere
3. any round shape, as a circle, ring or sphere
4. a circular, ring-shaped, curved, or spherical object

 

[AV1611VET]

Does that normally stop you?

Does what normally stop me?

 

[Opdrey]

Definition of "round:"

Round:
1. shaped like or approximately like a circle or cylinder
2. shaped like or approximately like a sphere
3. any round shape, as a circle, ring or sphere
4. a circular, ring-shaped, curved, or spherical object

Personally I don't care one way or another. The thing that many exegetes don't ever really think of is "significant digits". As I said earlier 3 is pretty close to 3.14 and could easily be a rounding error or just plain ol' back-o-the-envelope kind of figuring.

I do like this "ellipse" gambit. Seems like a lot of work just to allow the Bible to maintain significant digits.

 

[Opdrey]

Does what normally stop me?

Where did Noah's ark wind up?

 

[AV1611VET]

Seems like a lot of work just to allow the Bible to maintain significant digits.

At our New Year's banquet, a missionary who deals a lot with atheists came over to our table, and I was telling him that people will go to great lengths (no pun intended) to make the Bible look bad, but it almost always backfires on them and makes them show their true colors.

I brought up the part where Jesus told some people they're smart enough to discern the sky, but they can't discern the signs of the times.

I don't have the heart to be an atheist.

 

[AV1611VET]

Where did Noah's ark wind up?

Upon the mountains of Ararat.

Genesis 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

From there ... and in my opinion ... Noah dismantled it and built his homestead.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I do like this "ellipse" gambit. Seems like a lot of work just to allow the Bible to maintain significant digits.

Except that there would be only one place on the object where the Bible was correct. That is, there is only one place from opposite side to opposite side that would be 10 cubits.

 

[Astrid]

In reality it's not that bad of an "estimation". 3 is pretty close to 3.14 and given that they weren't writing a math treatise it really wasn't that onerous.

Its just one example that demonstrates that bible accounts
cannot be depended on for accuracy.

X cubits for length of a boat that was never built is precise but not
accurate either.

 

[AV1611VET]

Except that there would be only one place on the object where the Bible was correct. That is, there is only one place from opposite side to opposite side that would be 10 cubits.

Yup ... it's called the long axis.

The Bible gives the circumference (30) and the long axis (10), but does not give the short axis (9.0763[something]) since there's no need to.

Pi has nothing to do with it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Its just one example that demonstrates that bible accounts cannot be depended on for accuracy.

Why? are you planning to build a molten sea according to Biblical specs?

You know you can do it, don't you?

You don't need the short axis.

Just the circumference and the long axis -- that's all you need.

Get Pi out of your head; it's confusing you.

 

[Opdrey]

At our New Year's banquet, a missionary who deals a lot with atheists came over to our table, and I was telling him that people will go to great lengths (no pun intended) to make the Bible look bad, but it almost always backfires on them and makes them show their true colors.

I find that atheists tend to read the bible like a book. They are not beholden to making every jot and tittle align with the real world so they don't have to twist it and bend it.

I brought up the part where Jesus told some people they're smart enough to discern the sky, but they can't discern the signs of the times.

As I've said many times the Bible has a lot of value. There's a lot of wisdom. But that quote is like a double edged sword and it cuts both ways.

I don't have the heart to be an atheist.

Nor should you! No one expects you to be an atheist. A lot of people of faith cannot imagine life as an atheist. I think a lot of people of faith are actually scared of atheism like it's some disease that is catching.

 

[Opdrey]

Its just one example that demonstrates that bible accounts
cannot be depended on for accuracy.

Agreed. The Bible is not a textbook for anything technical in the slightest. If anything it's got some good stuff that explains how people function.

 

[AV1611VET]

I find that atheists tend to read the bible like a book.

No argument there.

They are not beholden to making every jot and tittle align with the real world so they don't have to twist it and bend it.

You mean like calling "child in the womb" a "fetus"?

As I've said many times the Bible has a lot of value.

Yup.

There's a lot of wisdom.

Yup.

But that quote is like a double edged sword and it cuts both ways.

Yup.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I think a lot of people of faith are actually scared of atheism like it's some disease that is catching.

It's not a disease -- it's a tare.

 

[Opdrey]

You mean like calling "child in the womb" a "fetus"?

No.

It's not a disease -- it's a tare.

There are people for whom religion is a tare and a disease.

Have you ever seen someone suffering from scrupulosity? I have. It's not a good thing. I once knew a really nice young man who, every time he had a 'bad thought' or 'blasphemous thought' he had to stop what he was doing, drop to the floor and touch the floor a set number of times. It was hard to watch him walk down the hall.

Of course YOU would say he's got religion all wrong, but that isn't it at all. He has a neurological disease called OCD and every compulsion he has feels more real to him than Jesus and God have EVER felt to you.

For whatever reason it didn't seem to limit his belief in God. His faith remained that God was real.

I am sure you have heard of Martin Luther. He similarly suffered from Scrupulosity. For whatever reason it didn't destroy his faith in God.

Now we can ask why God would allow someone to suffer their entire adult lives with this disease. In fact I can think of no worse theological evil than "scrupulosity". It isn't something the sufferer can control and something the sufferer did not "earn".

So, when you make big declarations about OTHER people's faith (or lack thereof) just remember YOU ARE BLESSED that God didn't CHOOSE YOU FOR this burden.

God chose me for it. Trust me, you wouldn't last a day with it.

 

[AV1611VET]

God chose me for it.

I'll put you on my prayer list.