How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

[Belk]

See, the thing is that I can still demonstrably retain my free will .. regardless of my beliefs. (I always seem to choose vanilla ice cream over chocolate .. for no particular reason).
A choice is not a decision. Choices can be defined as being made for no reason, whereas decisions can be defined as being made for all sorts of reasons, which include beliefs.

What 'real' means, is up to us to decide.

What you have given, are your belief based opinions .. (which I take as being a well intended contribution).

I can still choose freely, therefore this particular choice, must have nothing to do with your beliefs.

How can you demonstrate free will? I've never heard of anyone being able to demonstrate free will.

 

[HARK!]

Just found an awesome video on QM!

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Didn't mean to confuse you. Let me say it more plainly. "You are presented with options, regardless whether only one will be chosen and that path come to pass. But as it turns out, which you can't deny, only one option comes to fruition --the one you chose.

One of us (me) has said that from the start. The other (you) has said we are presented with a single option and a semblance of other options.

Do you see the difference in scenarios?

 

[Mark Quayle]

If that is the case, it is a fallacy to fall back on 'my God did it.'
I don;t care what you think re: 'your God', such fallacious reasoning does not provide evidence for the cause, much less prove it.

Yup - Odin did it.


Then I guess He is not God.
Sorry to tell you.

So you are left without First Cause? That leaves 1. no cause, or Chance or 2. Infinite regression of causes --both are logical nonsense.

 

[Mark Quayle]

One of us (me) has said that from the start. The other (you) has said we are presented with a single option and a semblance of other options.

Do you see the difference in scenarios?

No. I've been arguing all along we see more than one option, and choose between them.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Yeah, and God 'plays' the universe perfectly. Hence the analogy.

You missed the meaning again. "If" indicates uncertainty. It is not a foregone conclusion, it is not a certain outcome therefore it is a poor analogy.

 

[Mark Quayle]

See, the thing is that I can still demonstrably retain my free will .. regardless of my beliefs. (I always seem to choose vanilla ice cream over chocolate .. for no particular reason).
A choice is not a decision. Choices can be defined as being made for no reason, whereas decisions can be defined as being made for all sorts of reasons, which include beliefs.

What 'real' means, is up to us to decide.

What you have given, are your belief based opinions .. (which I take as being a well intended contribution).

I can still choose freely, therefore this particular choice, must have nothing to do with your beliefs.

According to science, philosophy and logicians, from what I have lately heard, Cause-and-Effect still rules. Everything is an effect, (and most of those cause other effects), except First Cause. Even if First Cause is not God, First Cause has caused all other causes, including whatever influences you to choose what you do.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

No. I've been arguing all along we see more than one option, and choose between them.

No, you really haven't. You have been arguing that God has already made the choice and even admitted that the other options have 0% chance of being picked, which makes them non-options. They only appear to be options.

 

[Strathos]

You missed the meaning again. "If" indicates uncertainty. It is not a foregone conclusion, it is not a certain outcome therefore it is a poor analogy.

There is a certain outcome when God is involved and decides that there will be one.

 

[Ohj1n37]

If we are predestined, then our exact course of action is set in stone and cannot be altered.

Well it appears we have different definitions of predestination.

In the video game analogy we're not the player... we're the non-player characters and God is the game developer.

We're the clay, God is the potter.

I hope you come to find the understanding you are looking for, that is the desire of someone who philosophically minded is it not?

It seems that many people are willing to sacrifice their free will, so that they have an excuse to not believe.

See, the thing is that I can still demonstrably retain my free will .. regardless of my beliefs.

Yes that statement was not to be taken literally. I have run into people who refuse to believe that they have free will, but I on the other hand believe otherwise.

What you have given, are your belief based opinions

As I have said believe what you will, but I do hope you come to understand.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, you really haven't. You have been arguing that God has already made the choice and even admitted that the other options have 0% chance of being picked, which makes them non-options. They only appear to be options.

That only is true if you operate on the same level God does. None of us do.

Once again, if intellectually excluding God from the process allows for cause of choices, yet choice nonetheless, intellectually including God as the one causing the causes does not change the question of whether you choose from among apparent options.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

That only is true if you operate on the same level God does. None of us do.

Once again, if intellectually excluding God from the process allows for cause of choices, yet choice nonetheless, intellectually including God as the one causing the causes does not change the question of whether you choose from among apparent options.

You can try to use clever sounding illogical expressions all you want. It doesn't stop them from being illogical. You cannot choose from apparent options, only from real ones.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You can try to use clever sounding illogical expressions all you want. It doesn't stop them from being illogical. You cannot choose from apparent options, only from real ones.

How do you know if they are actual options? Have we not already affirmed that the choices you make are all caused? Only one can be chosen.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

How do you know if they are actual options? Have we not already affirmed that the choices you make are all caused? Only one can be chosen.

Stop moving goalposts.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Stop moving goalposts.

I'll try again. You only can see what appears to you. You THINK you have options, (or like it is with me, even if you know only one will be chosen), you don't know which is the one that will be chosen until you choose it. God, however, knows very well --call it foresight, or forecausing-- the logical law of Cause-and-Effect means that it was indeed caused. Caused choice is still choice.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I'll try again. You only can see what appears to you. You THINK you have options, (or like it is with me, even if you know only one will be chosen), you don't know which is the one that will be chosen until you choose it. God, however, knows very well --call it foresight, or forecausing-- the logical law of Cause-and-Effect means that it was indeed caused. Caused choice is still choice.

Just stop. You're simply repeating a refuted assertion. Unless you have something new to say it's time to move on.

 

[Kylie]

Do you never do something for no particular reason?

Are you asking me if I ever decide to do something for no reason, or if I choose to do something for no reason?

 

[Kylie]

Well it appears we have different definitions of predestination.

In the video game analogy we're not the player... we're the non-player characters and God is the game developer.

We're the clay, God is the potter.

I hope you come to find the understanding you are looking for, that is the desire of someone who philosophically minded is it not?

Then that eliminates the idea of free choice completely!

 

[Kylie]

I'll try again. You only can see what appears to you. You THINK you have options, (or like it is with me, even if you know only one will be chosen), you don't know which is the one that will be chosen until you choose it. God, however, knows very well --call it foresight, or forecausing-- the logical law of Cause-and-Effect means that it was indeed caused. Caused choice is still choice.

If you only THINK you have options, then you ACTUALLY have none, and thus you aren't choosing anything.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you only THINK you have options, then you ACTUALLY have none, and thus you aren't choosing anything.

If that is what you choose to believe, ok.