How to deal with "Them."

[Time2BCounted]

I am getting ready for church. You posted that before I had a chance to pray over it. Secondly, I was already thinking about it, but I am not going to be bullied into it either.

As I said, Time, rather than pointing out what I have done, maybe, you need to work on your own and let me work on mine.

Do you not see? Your first response to my request to go to prayer was to accuse. Are you actually unwilling to pray over this unless your conditions are met by me?

Let God discipline me. If I was wrong to post that, God will settle my account. I do not need you to do it for me especially when I am asking EVERYONE to stop, pray, and THEN come back and settle the wrongs and make things right.

Why are you asking me to make things right as a condition on you praying over this?

Lisa

i just spent the last 3 hours praying

 

[Macrina]

I'd like to remind everyone here that this thread is about how we can best communicate with those with whom we disagree -- not to insult one another. If you have constructive ideas about communication, please share them. If you want to rehash battles, go someplace else.

This is a sensitive topic, but I intend my words in a constructive and supportive tone. I hope they will be accepted in that manner.

I have quite a bit of experience at being the most conservative in the room. As an undergrad, I was at a secular university which had little patience for evangelical theology. One of the theological schools I attended (the one from which I received my MDiv) is in the running for the most liberal in the country; most of the issues here pale in comparison to what I faced there every day. My denomination is incredibly diverse, with a disproportionate number of the clergy being liberal. Therefore, I've had to learn some skills not only for survival in environments where I am the theological minority, but also techniques which help my convictions to be heard in a productive way. This hasn't been easy knowledge for me to learn, so I hope it is of value if I pass on a few pointers:

Beware of falling into the "us verses them" trap. It's so easy to feel like people are against us, but it can lead to a counterproductive defensiveness or even aggression. That doesn't win anybody over, and just raises everyone's blood pressure.

Instead, I've found it beneficial to recognize when people are working towards the same values as me, but interpret those values in different ways. For example, I may believe that one course of action is a just one, and others may believe that another is more just. We disagree, but we share the principle of justice. This can also apply to other values, such as holiness or compassion. Being able to say to one another "you and I are both seeking ___ in this situation" can lead to a mutual team effort to find a solution, rather than further polarization. Furthermore, people are more likely to listen to us when we acknowledge the positive values for which they are working.

Which leads me to: Listen. A useful technique for me is to paraphrase back what someone is telling me and ask "is this a correct understanding?" I try to get to the point where I could articulate the other person's position, and their reasoning, even if I do not agree with it. This helps me to understand where they are coming from and to be alert to possible solutions to a conflict. I can't recommend this simple approach highly enough. Combine that with being willing to refine your paraphrase according to the person's feedback, and you'll find communication gets a lot easier.

Be cautious about ascribing motives to someone else. We can't see into someone's hearts or minds, and human communication is imperfect -- so it's all too easy for us to misinterpret someone else's motivations. Without strong evidence to the contrary, I find it's generally best to interact with people using the functional assumption that they are representing their motives accurately. Doing anything else is insulting to the other party and can cause communication to deteriorate.

Related to the above: Avoid character judgments. People don't like that and will tune you out.

Assess what is essential and what is non-negotiable. Determine if there is an area in which you can be flexible and find room for compromise. There are certainly some thing that cannot be compromised, but not every issue will fall into that category.

Last but certainly not least, remain calm. Present your position clearly and methodically, detailing the values you are trying to pursue and why you think your course of action is the best for the purpose. If you feel like you might lose your temper, take a step back until you can continue on an even keel. If attacked, do not respond in kind, but maintain respectful and rational discourse. You represent your position best when you yourself remain collected.

As I said, these are some lessons that I have learned over the years being "the token conservative." I would like to think that the growing pains associated with these lessons didn't go to waste, so I hope it is useful for me to pass these tips on.

Mac

 

[Willtor]

I'm not a member of CC so if my post doesn't "cut the muster" then feel free to report it and have it deleted. I won't take offense.

I think Mac posted something that was really worthwhile. She could have written it for anybody. But she chose to write it for you so that you would have the benefit of it. Yes, of course it's difficult not to be dragged down to the level of hostility and self-righteousness. But fighting it is also the right thing to do. If you can, for a moment, step back and appreciate the OP. She didn't write it for the liberals or the non-Christians or whomever else (though any of them could use it). She wrote it for you. Because she wants you peeps really to be the unambiguously "good guys" in all of your dialogue and discussion with each other and anyone else. I'm absolutely positive she didn't say it with any venom, and if it hit a nerve I assure you it was unintentional.

 

[Criada]

Mac - thank you.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm not a member of CC so if my post doesn't "cut the muster" then feel free to report it and have it deleted. I won't take offense.

I think Mac posted something that was really worthwhile. She could have written it for anybody. But she chose to write it for you so that you would have the benefit of it. Yes, of course it's difficult not to be dragged down to the level of hostility and self-righteousness. But fighting it is also the right thing to do. If you can, for a moment, step back and appreciate the OP. She didn't write it for the liberals or the non-Christians or whomever else (though any of them could use it). She wrote it for you. Because she wants you peeps really to be the unambiguously "good guys" in all of your dialogue and discussion with each other and anyone else. I'm absolutely positive she didn't say it with any venom, and if it hit a nerve I assure you it was unintentional.

I know, but again, your'e trying to unify..... oh nevermind.
THE 2 CANNOT UNIFY - it all depends on how you view the term "Christian" -- and that's all i can say.
If someone is trying to "unify" me with people who claim homosexuality isn't sinful, that abortion is just peachy with God, that a Christian is anyone who claims to be one and the bible isn't authoratative truth from God, & many who deny Christ is even God,
then I'm sorry.
No. Even the bible doesnt' tell me to unify w/ that.

2 John 1:9-11 for starters.

 

[Willtor]

I know, but again, your'e trying to unify..... oh nevermind.
THE 2 CANNOT UNIFY - it all depends on how you view the term "Christian" -- and that's all i can say.
If someone is trying to "unify" me with people who claim homosexuality isn't sinful, that abortion is just peachy with God, that a Christian is anyone who claims to be one and the bible isn't authoratative truth from God, & many who deny Christ is even God,
then I'm sorry.
No. Even the bible doesnt' tell me to unify w/ that.

2 John 1:9-11 for starters.

What am I trying to unify?

Read the OP, again. Seriously. It isn't about what I think you think it's about. It's good advice whether you choose to be unified or not.

 

[Nadiine]

It just seems that if both sides of an issue got the same advice, maybe it would be more effective. It doesn't seem fair to ask one side of an issue to *suck it up* and allow another side free reign.

Thank you for noticing my issue with all that's going on.

It's also easy not to engage with the threads I have been in (such as the definition of a Christian for this forum) where the "other side" is working diligently to undo the very meanings of Christianity stands for, then point at me for using some rebuke.

I'd love to be passing out cotton candy & butterflies to everybody, but in harsh threads where there's opposition like that, it gets nowhere. And I also don't use ad hom attacks - I keep it ON POINT to the issues.

I can't speak for others - but I dont call that being hostile or "meanspirited". Granted, we aren't perfect - but I've seen some complain here too.
It isn't just me & 3 others - everyone plays a part in the problems in some way.

 

[Lisa0315]

i just spent the last 3 hours praying

The forum is acting up. I just go home from church. I intended to edit my post, Time, but I cannot find it. When I do "Own", it kicks me out. If you can link me up, I will delete it.

I could not even quote you. I had to use quick quote.

Lisa

 

[Time2BCounted]

The forum is acting up. I just go home from church. I intended to edit my post, Time, but I cannot find it. When I do "Own", it kicks me out. If you can link me up, I will delete it.

I could not even quote you. I had to use quick quote.

Lisa

its ok sis
im not upset with you

its in the subdebate forum i believe

i dont however feel i am the cause for things here whatsoever.

i do feel that in persuing good, evil was present as we are promised in scripture, and they, outsiders, coming here, are our problem

Even now they are debating in the main forum with all these mods to stop it.

not that i want it stopped until they go, i personally dont mind facing them. i just hate my brothers and sisters blaming me personally for standing against such things and standing to DO good things outside of the forum

but i do have the skin of a rhino and im not hurt

I love you in Christ

 

[Lisa0315]

its ok sis
im not upset with you

its in the subdebate forum i believe

i dont however feel i am the cause for things here whatsoever.

i do feel that in persuing good, evil was present as we are promised in scripture, and they, outsiders, coming here, are our problem

Even now they are debating in the main forum with all these mods to stop it.

not that i want it stopped until they go, i personally dont mind facing them. i just hate my brothers and sisters blaming me personally for standing against such things and standing to DO good things outside of the forum

but i do have the skin of a rhino and im not hurt

I love you in Christ

Can you please point me to these threads I keep hearing about? I admit I do not spend every single waking moment in here like I used to, but I haven't seen a single thing that needs to be "stood against".

Lisa

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Closed temporarily for clean-up. We'll open it again as soon as possible, and all off-topic posts will be moved to their own thread.

Thanks for your patience ​

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Thread has been cleaned-up. All posts about Refuge have been moved here.

Please keep this thread on topic?

Thanks ya bunches

Thread re-opened.​

 

[Rochir]

This is a sensitive topic, but I intend my words in a constructive and supportive tone. I hope they will be accepted in that manner.

I have quite a bit of experience at being the most conservative in the room. As an undergrad, I was at a secular university which had little patience for evangelical theology. One of the theological schools I attended (the one from which I received my MDiv) is in the running for the most liberal in the country; most of the issues here pale in comparison to what I faced there every day. My denomination is incredibly diverse, with a disproportionate number of the clergy being liberal. Therefore, I've had to learn some skills not only for survival in environments where I am the theological minority, but also techniques which help my convictions to be heard in a productive way. This hasn't been easy knowledge for me to learn, so I hope it is of value if I pass on a few pointers:

Beware of falling into the "us verses them" trap. It's so easy to feel like people are against us, but it can lead to a counterproductive defensiveness or even aggression. That doesn't win anybody over, and just raises everyone's blood pressure.

Instead, I've found it beneficial to recognize when people are working towards the same values as me, but interpret those values in different ways. For example, I may believe that one course of action is a just one, and others may believe that another is more just. We disagree, but we share the principle of justice. This can also apply to other values, such as holiness or compassion. Being able to say to one another "you and I are both seeking ___ in this situation" can lead to a mutual team effort to find a solution, rather than further polarization. Furthermore, people are more likely to listen to us when we acknowledge the positive values for which they are working.

Which leads me to: Listen. A useful technique for me is to paraphrase back what someone is telling me and ask "is this a correct understanding?" I try to get to the point where I could articulate the other person's position, and their reasoning, even if I do not agree with it. This helps me to understand where they are coming from and to be alert to possible solutions to a conflict. I can't recommend this simple approach highly enough. Combine that with being willing to refine your paraphrase according to the person's feedback, and you'll find communication gets a lot easier.

Be cautious about ascribing motives to someone else. We can't see into someone's hearts or minds, and human communication is imperfect -- so it's all too easy for us to misinterpret someone else's motivations. Without strong evidence to the contrary, I find it's generally best to interact with people using the functional assumption that they are representing their motives accurately. Doing anything else is insulting to the other party and can cause communication to deteriorate.

Related to the above: Avoid character judgments. People don't like that and will tune you out.

Assess what is essential and what is non-negotiable. Determine if there is an area in which you can be flexible and find room for compromise. There are certainly some thing that cannot be compromised, but not every issue will fall into that category.

Last but certainly not least, remain calm. Present your position clearly and methodically, detailing the values you are trying to pursue and why you think your course of action is the best for the purpose. If you feel like you might lose your temper, take a step back until you can continue on an even keel. If attacked, do not respond in kind, but maintain respectful and rational discourse. You represent your position best when you yourself remain collected.

As I said, these are some lessons that I have learned over the years being "the token conservative." I would like to think that the growing pains associated with these lessons didn't go to waste, so I hope it is useful for me to pass these tips on.

Mac

What a totally awesome post!

 

[edie19]

This is a sensitive topic, but I intend my words in a constructive and supportive tone. I hope they will be accepted in that manner.

I have quite a bit of experience at being the most conservative in the room. As an undergrad, I was at a secular university which had little patience for evangelical theology. One of the theological schools I attended (the one from which I received my MDiv) is in the running for the most liberal in the country; most of the issues here pale in comparison to what I faced there every day. My denomination is incredibly diverse, with a disproportionate number of the clergy being liberal. Therefore, I've had to learn some skills not only for survival in environments where I am the theological minority, but also techniques which help my convictions to be heard in a productive way. This hasn't been easy knowledge for me to learn, so I hope it is of value if I pass on a few pointers:

Beware of falling into the "us verses them" trap. It's so easy to feel like people are against us, but it can lead to a counterproductive defensiveness or even aggression. That doesn't win anybody over, and just raises everyone's blood pressure.

Instead, I've found it beneficial to recognize when people are working towards the same values as me, but interpret those values in different ways. For example, I may believe that one course of action is a just one, and others may believe that another is more just. We disagree, but we share the principle of justice. This can also apply to other values, such as holiness or compassion. Being able to say to one another "you and I are both seeking ___ in this situation" can lead to a mutual team effort to find a solution, rather than further polarization. Furthermore, people are more likely to listen to us when we acknowledge the positive values for which they are working.

Which leads me to: Listen. A useful technique for me is to paraphrase back what someone is telling me and ask "is this a correct understanding?" I try to get to the point where I could articulate the other person's position, and their reasoning, even if I do not agree with it. This helps me to understand where they are coming from and to be alert to possible solutions to a conflict. I can't recommend this simple approach highly enough. Combine that with being willing to refine your paraphrase according to the person's feedback, and you'll find communication gets a lot easier.

Be cautious about ascribing motives to someone else. We can't see into someone's hearts or minds, and human communication is imperfect -- so it's all too easy for us to misinterpret someone else's motivations. Without strong evidence to the contrary, I find it's generally best to interact with people using the functional assumption that they are representing their motives accurately. Doing anything else is insulting to the other party and can cause communication to deteriorate.

Related to the above: Avoid character judgments. People don't like that and will tune you out.

Assess what is essential and what is non-negotiable. Determine if there is an area in which you can be flexible and find room for compromise. There are certainly some thing that cannot be compromised, but not every issue will fall into that category.

Last but certainly not least, remain calm. Present your position clearly and methodically, detailing the values you are trying to pursue and why you think your course of action is the best for the purpose. If you feel like you might lose your temper, take a step back until you can continue on an even keel. If attacked, do not respond in kind, but maintain respectful and rational discourse. You represent your position best when you yourself remain collected.

As I said, these are some lessons that I have learned over the years being "the token conservative." I would like to think that the growing pains associated with these lessons didn't go to waste, so I hope it is useful for me to pass these tips on.

Mac

Mac,

Thank you for a sincere and heartfelt post.

I try to remind myself often - Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person. - such simple advice, but so profound.

Sometimes just waiting a few seconds before hitting the submit reply button can make all the difference.

edie

 

[Macrina]

I'm just re-posting the OP, along with a few comments to clarify what I'm trying to do here.

I'm not referring to the content of what we proclaim, but the way in which we proclaim it. Something I've discovered through personal experience is that when I neglect these elements, I very rarely see the kind of change I'm looking for; however, if I'm intentional about these techniques, I see that my words have a greater impact.


If anyone else has comments about communication style and how to be effective, please feel free to post them here. However, I request that the thread remain on-topic. Thanks!

This is a sensitive topic, but I intend my words in a constructive and supportive tone. I hope they will be accepted in that manner.

I have quite a bit of experience at being the most conservative in the room. As an undergrad, I was at a secular university which had little patience for evangelical theology. One of the theological schools I attended (the one from which I received my MDiv) is in the running for the most liberal in the country; most of the issues here pale in comparison to what I faced there every day. My denomination is incredibly diverse, with a disproportionate number of the clergy being liberal. Therefore, I've had to learn some skills not only for survival in environments where I am the theological minority, but also techniques which help my convictions to be heard in a productive way. This hasn't been easy knowledge for me to learn, so I hope it is of value if I pass on a few pointers:

Beware of falling into the "us verses them" trap. It's so easy to feel like people are against us, but it can lead to a counterproductive defensiveness or even aggression. That doesn't win anybody over, and just raises everyone's blood pressure.

Instead, I've found it beneficial to recognize when people are working towards the same values as me, but interpret those values in different ways. For example, I may believe that one course of action is a just one, and others may believe that another is more just. We disagree, but we share the principle of justice. This can also apply to other values, such as holiness or compassion. Being able to say to one another "you and I are both seeking ___ in this situation" can lead to a mutual team effort to find a solution, rather than further polarization. Furthermore, people are more likely to listen to us when we acknowledge the positive values for which they are working.

Which leads me to: Listen. A useful technique for me is to paraphrase back what someone is telling me and ask "is this a correct understanding?" I try to get to the point where I could articulate the other person's position, and their reasoning, even if I do not agree with it. This helps me to understand where they are coming from and to be alert to possible solutions to a conflict. I can't recommend this simple approach highly enough. Combine that with being willing to refine your paraphrase according to the person's feedback, and you'll find communication gets a lot easier.

Be cautious about ascribing motives to someone else. We can't see into someone's hearts or minds, and human communication is imperfect -- so it's all too easy for us to misinterpret someone else's motivations. Without strong evidence to the contrary, I find it's generally best to interact with people using the functional assumption that they are representing their motives accurately. Doing anything else is insulting to the other party and can cause communication to deteriorate.

Related to the above: Avoid character judgments. People don't like that and will tune you out.

Assess what is essential and what is non-negotiable. Determine if there is an area in which you can be flexible and find room for compromise. There are certainly some thing that cannot be compromised, but not every issue will fall into that category.

Last but certainly not least, remain calm. Present your position clearly and methodically, detailing the values you are trying to pursue and why you think your course of action is the best for the purpose. If you feel like you might lose your temper, take a step back until you can continue on an even keel. If attacked, do not respond in kind, but maintain respectful and rational discourse. You represent your position best when you yourself remain collected.

As I said, these are some lessons that I have learned over the years being "the token conservative." I would like to think that the growing pains associated with these lessons didn't go to waste, so I hope it is useful for me to pass these tips on.

Mac

 

[Macrina]

...Sometimes just waiting a few seconds before hitting the submit reply button can make all the difference.

edie

This is very true.

The anonymity of the internet makes it especially easy to lose our tempers. Combine that with the difficulty of communicating "tone" in text, and we have to be very careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot.

 

[3girls2dogs]

I'm just curious, here. Everyone who is so adamant about ridding "us" of "them", do we really even know who "them" is.

You all know me now, and you accept me as a sister, but I fear that if you knew where I came from or the mistakes I have made over time, maybe you would see me as an "them". It makes me afraid to admit to being anything less than perfect. It isn't a good way to feel. When I first joined CC, not long ago, it felt like home. Now I have things I need to talk to with my "family" but I am afraid. Why?

None of us are perfect, and maybe I really don't belong here after all. Funny thing is, I don't question whether my Lord loves and accepts me. I know I am forgiven by Him. It's just some others whom I worry about. Doesn't that seem wrong to anyone?

No one is going to want to ever be open and honest about their issues in faith if they have to live in fear of being judged harshly and never being accepted or forgiven, even if they have repented or are trying to repent. Isn't anyone else afraid that we may be driving off more than we may be saving? I worry about that a lot.

 

[Lisa0315]

I'm just curious, here. Everyone who is so adamant about ridding "us" of "them", do we really even know who "them" is.

You all know me now, and you accept me as a sister, but I fear that if you knew where I came from or the mistakes I have made over time, maybe you would see me as an "them". It makes me afraid to admit to being anything less than perfect. It isn't a good way to feel. When I first joined CC, not long ago, it felt like home. Now I have things I need to talk to with my "family" but I am afraid. Why?

None of us are perfect, and maybe I really don't belong here after all. Funny thing is, I don't question whether my Lord loves and accepts me. I know I am forgiven by Him. It's just some others whom I worry about. Doesn't that seem wrong to anyone?

No one is going to want to ever be open and honest about their issues in faith if they have to live in fear of being judged harshly and never being accepted or forgiven, even if they have repented or are trying to repent. Isn't anyone else afraid that we may be driving off more than we may be saving? I worry about that a lot.

Amen.

Lisa

 

[Macrina]

I'm just curious, here. Everyone who is so adamant about ridding "us" of "them", do we really even know who "them" is.

You all know me now, and you accept me as a sister, but I fear that if you knew where I came from or the mistakes I have made over time, maybe you would see me as an "them". It makes me afraid to admit to being anything less than perfect. It isn't a good way to feel. When I first joined CC, not long ago, it felt like home. Now I have things I need to talk to with my "family" but I am afraid. Why?

None of us are perfect, and maybe I really don't belong here after all. Funny thing is, I don't question whether my Lord loves and accepts me. I know I am forgiven by Him. It's just some others whom I worry about. Doesn't that seem wrong to anyone?

No one is going to want to ever be open and honest about their issues in faith if they have to live in fear of being judged harshly and never being accepted or forgiven, even if they have repented or are trying to repent. Isn't anyone else afraid that we may be driving off more than we may be saving? I worry about that a lot.

You'll notice that "Them" is in quotes in the thread title. It's because it tends to be a slippery set of categories.

I think breaking out of the party-line mentality is a first step towards being able to sincerely and honestly examine issues.

It is my hope that improved communication will make this a place where people feel free to share their struggles, without fear of being rejected for it.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I'm just curious, here. Everyone who is so adamant about ridding "us" of "them", do we really even know who "them" is.

You all know me now, and you accept me as a sister, but I fear that if you knew where I came from or the mistakes I have made over time, maybe you would see me as an "them". It makes me afraid to admit to being anything less than perfect. It isn't a good way to feel. When I first joined CC, not long ago, it felt like home. Now I have things I need to talk to with my "family" but I am afraid. Why?

None of us are perfect, and maybe I really don't belong here after all. Funny thing is, I don't question whether my Lord loves and accepts me. I know I am forgiven by Him. It's just some others whom I worry about. Doesn't that seem wrong to anyone?

No one is going to want to ever be open and honest about their issues in faith if they have to live in fear of being judged harshly and never being accepted or forgiven, even if they have repented or are trying to repent. Isn't anyone else afraid that we may be driving off more than we may be saving? I worry about that a lot.

Love you

Duck, we've *all* done stuff in the past. Heck, we all do stuff *now*. Never feel concerned about being judged here. This is your home and we're your family. 'nuff said