How to choose between creation and evolution.

[Speedwell]

Is there any book, contrary to your thoughts, which would not be doubted? The NT was written by the closest thing to ‘historians’ of the time, in some cases witnesses themselves, and provided ‘data’ in the form of ‘personal accounts’ from contemporaries, who many times saw first-hand the events unfolding.

But that does not mean that the text of these accounts is 100% accurate literal history. People understood historical narrative differently in those days, as has been pointed out.

In the case of Hebrews, the author was writing in the present tense, and less than 40 years after Jesus. These communications weren’t for the reason of trying to mold a religious belief hundreds of years after the fact, or creating a historical or scientific paper, but they were observations, which hint at what was transpiring and had transpired, and evidently accepted by many educated people of the time. If not, where are the skeptical accounts of the day? I find it hard to believe there would have been no weighty skepticism survive, had that been the case? Isn’t that a form of ‘evidence?’ These works continue to be poured over by critics, looking for any way to discredit them. When looking for scientific truth, did present-day scientists look at the communication of early men of science, pre-scientific method days, with so much contempt beyond critique?

The situation is not parallel. An historical narrative is not, cannot be, considered scientific evidence. It doesn't matter who wrote it.

 

[RDKirk]

Something I learned in the military dealing with men in combat:

There are some things you don't need to figure out today in order to survive and succeed today. Getting through the combat mission for today is enough to be concerned about.

Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. -- Matthew 6

That applies to "yesterday" as well as "tomorrow."

If the Holy Spirit dwells within someone, that person knows that God is real. What he doesn't know about the prehistoric past bears little importance to accomplishing the "good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Members of the Body of Christ who think they must resolve this issue before they can get on with the "good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" are mistaken.

As well, members of the Body of Christ who think they must resolve this issue for not-yet-believers are also mistaken. This is a distraction.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

The person who has been enabled and who is being drawn by the Father does not need the creation-or-evolution question answered. Even if he thinks he does, he really doesn't. The issue is a distraction from the actual gospel, designed by the Enemy to prevent us from getting to the gospel.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

 

[HitchSlap]

Sure: faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance [data] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

GIGO

 

[inquiring mind]

Something I learned in the military dealing with men in combat:

There are some things you don't need to figure out today in order to survive and succeed today. Getting through the combat mission for today is enough to be concerned about.

Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. -- Matthew 6

That applies to "yesterday" as well as "tomorrow."

If the Holy Spirit dwells within someone, that person knows that God is real. What he doesn't know about the prehistoric past bears little importance to accomplishing the "good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Members of the Body of Christ who think they must resolve this issue before they can get on with the "good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" are mistaken.

As well, members of the Body of Christ who think they must resolve this issue for not-yet-believers are also mistaken. This is a distraction.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

The person who has been enabled and who is being drawn by the Father does not need the creation-or-evolution question answered. Even if he thinks he does, he really doesn't. The issue is a distraction from the actual gospel, designed by the Enemy to prevent us from getting to the gospel.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

I was in the military, although not in combat, but I’m sure you’re right about that struggle, as well as many other everyday concerns. I can’t speak for all believers, but for me I have no pre-conceived ideas about being on a crusade here. I do agree about being drawn to God and that we do not need the creation/evolution question answered as believers. However, I and others here can interact, up to a point for me anyway, and I can’t see where any opportunity to attest to your faith is completely fruitless. Afterall, the apostles faced some pretty dire situations. Some get disrespectful occasionally, both ways I guess, but that happens in other topics as well.

 

[RDKirk]

However, I and others here can interact, up to a point for me anyway, and I can’t see where any opportunity to attest to your faith is completely fruitless.

Things like "attest to your faith" and "sharing your faith" are broad and bland enough to mean almost anything.

But what does "You're going to hell, you sinner!" actually attest to?

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
....
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

There is no point to railing at an unbeliever about his sins. He's is only obeying his own master. Railing at an unbeliever about his sins is nothing but a feckless activity that wastes our time and only annoys the unbeliever.

It doesn't matter what "sins" he commits while in unbelief. He is condemned by his unbelief, not by his actions; he can only be saved by belief, not by his actions.

There is nothing effective to be said to him about his "sins" until he has become a "slave to righteousness."

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear

There are two aspect to the outreach that effectively contributes to the mission of the Body of Christ:

1. Evangelism. Evangelism is telling people what Jesus did for them.

2. Witnessing. Witnessing is telling people what Jesus did for you.

They are not the same thing, nor should they be conflated. They are distinctly different activities, and each requires preparation (including prayer).

Scripture gives us this model for the evangelist:

1. The evangelist is called to the role of evangelism by the Holy Spirit and appropriately gifted by the Holy Spirit. Not everyone is an evangelist.

2. The evangelist is thoroughly trained in the gospel by teachers within the Body of Christ before he begins his mission.

3. The evangelist is commissioned--hands laid upon him and sent out on a specific evangelistic mission--by a local congregation.

4. The evangelist is held accountable for his results to the congregation that commissioned him.

That's the model for evangelism that we see in scripture.

The rule for witnessing is this:

As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.

"Witness" was defined 'way back in Leviticus 5, and the New Testament does not redefine it. Nobody alive today can give "witness" to the life, death, or resurrection of Jesus because nobody alive today heard or saw those events.

What we are all responsible for is witnessing what Jesus has done in our own lives--what we have experienced first-hand.

And we should not underestimate the important role of such witness in making disciples. Unlike evangelism, witnessing does not require a specific calling, or a spiritual gift, or training, or a commission.

All you need to know is what Jesus did for you:

Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.”
....
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
--------------------
The man replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"

 

[inquiring mind]

Things like "attest to your faith" and "sharing your faith" are broad and bland enough to mean almost anything.
But what does "You're going to hell, you sinner!" actually attest to?

Sorry, I joined this thread later on... I missed that.

 

[Kylie]

The Bible says otherwise.

The Bible says a lot of things that are wrong.

 

[tas8831]

OK - let me pick... the human obturator foramen*.

Please provide evidence that it was created.

But tell us all, exactly, which molecules associated with the obturator foramen were created and provide the evidence for this. Tell me about the inductive processes that produced the specialized tissues associated with it, and show me the evidence that those processes and tissues were created.

Merely saying they were does not count. And do not engage in the burden shifting fallacy by demanding I prove they were not created. YOU claimed they were created, now show that you have more than overconfident assertions.

And he never did...

 

[inquiring mind]

The Bible says a lot of things that are wrong.

Maybe your interpretation of a lot of things in the Bible is wrong???

 

[Speedwell]

Maybe your interpretation of a lot of things in the Bible is wrong???

Quite possibly. But the possibility exists that yours is wrong as well. After all, it is not even held to by all Christians.

 

[inquiring mind]

Quite possibly. But the possibility exists that yours is wrong as well. After all, it is not even held to by all Christians.

True

 

[Kylie]

Maybe your interpretation of a lot of things in the Bible is wrong???

Perhaps.

But if the Bible and reality are saying something different, then I'm going to conclude that that Bible is getting it wrong, because I seriously doubt that reality is getting it wrong.

 

[Sanoy]

This sort of thing always brings me back to post #2113

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible is sharper than any twoedged sword.

Hebrews 4:12a For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,

Talismen can take a hike.

EDIT: My mistake. Put this back in the zombie category.

 

[cutterfl]

Great. Point me to the people who came to the conclusion of creationism without an apriori religious belief. I'll wait.

well ecological science says service providers must all be present at some minimum to allow ecosystem to survive....how did flowering plants survive without pollinators...or the fungi to allow their roots to exchange nutrients and bacteriological protection.They had to be on same day or one or the other would die out. no?

 

[Shemjaza]

well ecological science says service providers must all be present at some minimum to allow ecosystem to survive....how did flowering plants survive without pollinators...or the fungi to allow their roots to exchange nutrients and bacteriological protection.They had to be on same day or one or the other would die out. no?

Transition from not needing at all, to being able to pollinate with and without help and finally to being dependent on pollination... easy, especially since all these variations exist currently.

 

[cutterfl]

so millions of years you they waited around for pollinators and died out in 1 year without them have you ever grown ANY plants?

 

[Shemjaza]

so millions of years you they waited around for pollinators and died out in 1 year without them have you ever grown ANY plants?

No? How did you get that from what i said.

When there was no pollinators the plants simply relied on wind or other passive methods.

The plants who rely on pollinators and the pollinators them selves adapted together forming closer bonds over generations.

 

[cutterfl]

you have never grown plants have you. do you realize a lot of pollinators are annuals. They die after one 1 growth period...tomatos...etc...

 

[Shemjaza]

you have never grown plants have you. do you realize a lot of pollinators are annuals. They die after one 1 growth period...tomatos...etc...

Yes... and none of those species existed before pollinators. That was my point.