How to choose between creation and evolution.

[Speedwell]

ugh, double post

Post in the usual way, wait for the little indicator in the upper right-hand corner to quit grinding and move on regardless that the other changes you are used to seeing haven't occurred. The site's wonky today.

 

[HitchSlap]

Your personal experience in no way changes the fact that lumbar biomechanics is a bad design, predisposing humans to epidemic levels of incapacitating episodes of low back pain and sciatica.

An intelligent designer would have done a better job.

Even mechanics are surprised at the mileage I put on my vehicles.

1996 Grand Marquis, 465,000 miles, drove for 9 years.
2005 Grand Marquis, 360,000 miles (current vehicle), drove for 11 years now. Still hums like new.

Just like your vehicle, if you take care of your back it will probably work just fine. I'm 78 and still climbing trees in the fall.
View attachment 224935

 

[HitchSlap]

Your personal experience in no way changes the fact that lumbar biomechanics is a bad design, predisposing humans to epidemic levels of incapacitating episodes of low back pain and sciatica.

An intelligent designer would have done a better job.

Even mechanics are surprised at the mileage I put on my vehicles.

1996 Grand Marquis, 465,000 miles, drove for 9 years.
2005 Grand Marquis, 360,000 miles (current vehicle), drove for 11 years now. Still hums like new.

Just like your vehicle, if you take care of your back it will probably work just fine. I'm 78 and still climbing trees in the fall.
View attachment 224935

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Your personal experience in no way changes the fact that lumbar biomechanics is a bad design, predisposing humans to epidemic levels of incapacitating episodes of low back pain and sciatica.

An intelligent designer would have done a better job.

God's design doesn't allow for misuse. Only man's designs do this.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Your personal experience in no way changes the fact that lumbar biomechanics is a bad design, predisposing humans to epidemic levels of incapacitating episodes of low back pain and sciatica.

I have many "personal experiences" that are quite successful that many others fail at. Because they fail and I don't does that mean that they are right and I am wrong?

To my car analogy, if my car was poorly designed I couldn't get the mileage that I do. It's designed to last much longer than people realize, but only if they follow the maintenance schedules, especially fluid changes.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Your personal experience in no way changes the fact that lumbar biomechanics is a bad design, predisposing humans to epidemic levels of incapacitating episodes of low back pain and sciatica.

I have many "personal experiences" that are quite successful that many others fail at. Because they fail and I don't does that mean that they are right and I am wrong?

To my car analogy, if my car was poorly designed I couldn't get the mileage that I do. It's designed to last much longer than people realize, but only if they follow the maintenance schedules, especially fluid changes.

 

[HitchSlap]

I have many "personal experiences" that are quite successful that many others fail at.

So what.

Because they fail and I don't does that mean that they are right and I am wrong?

In the case of a poorly "designed" lumbar biomechanics, yes.

To my car analogy, if my car was poorly designed I couldn't get the mileage that I do. It's designed to last much longer than people realize, but only if they follow the maintenance schedules, especially fluid changes.

Cars can be designed to last as long or short as one cares to, I presume. But we're talking evolution here, and lumbar spine biomechanics in upright bipedal hominids is an absolute engineering nightmare, which leads to countless hours of time loss from work, billions of dollars of pain management, surgery, epidural steroid injections and rehab.

A first year engineering student would be able to "design" a spine that did a better job of distributing load and stress than our current anatomy.

 

[pitabread]

Of course . The use what Biology has proved to do their work. They do not use anything from evolution.

Leaving aside the fact that evolution *is* an applied science, let's go with that people in biology-related industries have a vested interest in the best understanding possible of that biology.

So if evolution is false (per your claims), why are people in industry not clamoring for and/or promoting a better understanding of that biology? Especially in regards to your claims about educational institutions just teaching what they've been previously taught.

Industries don't operate in a vacuum after all. They rely on graduates from educational institutions to fill skilled positions.

So why wouldn't those in industry be pushing for better understandings of biology to be taught? (Again, pretending that evolution is false just for the sake of argument.)

While they are faith based, they do not require their faculty to reject something based on their religion.

You mean other than the fact that they explicitly list just that in their respective faith statements/principles? Answers in Genesis even says on their site that they require anyone working for their ministry to strictly abide by their statement of faith.

Nothing in those statements require the person to reject something or falsify something based on their religion.

Except for the parts that I quoted verbatim from their respective web sites.

Do you think a creationist could get a teaching position in Boloogy in a secular university?

If you believe any of the lists of creation scientists that various groups like to tout, then clearly some have.

 

[hecd2]

Classical avoiding the question. You are tho one waving your hands and devoid of evidence. Those who understand basic genetic don't need a citation from a reputable study.

Riiiight.

You have not provided a citation from a reputable study showing HOW a leg can become a fin.

I realise you don't recognise evidence when you see it (or if you recognise it, you handwave it away), but these things below are called references. The way this works is that you read them and come back with reasoned comments about the details they contain. I won't hold my breath.

Yano and Tamura, "The making of the differences between fins and limbs", Journal of Anatomy, here. Excellent review article, with a huge number of references.

Shubin, Tabin and Carroll, "Deep homology and the origins of evolutionary novelty", Nature 457, 818–823 (12 February 2009), another excellent review article from some of the foremost evolutionary biologists in one of the world's premier journals, covering more than fins and limbs

Davis, Dahn and Shubin, "An autopodial-like pattern of Hox expression in the fins of a basal actinopterygian fish", Nature 447, pages 473–476 (24 May 2007). A short quote from the abstract: "Here, we report on the expression and function of genes implicated in the origin of the autopod in a basal actinopterygian, Polyodon spathula. Polyodon exhibits a late-phase, inverted collinear expression of 5′ HoxD genes, a pattern of expression long considered a developmental hallmark of the autopod and shown in tetrapods to be controlled by a ‘digit enhancer’ region. These data show that aspects of the development of the autopod are primitive to tetrapods and that the origin of digits entailed the redeployment of ancient patterns of gene activity." (The autopod is the hand or foot of tetrapods).

I have just answered about a dozen post and not one of them included any scientific evidence. In the future don't expect an answer from me, if your post does not include some real scientific evidence.

Just as well to prepare for the flounce.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So what.

In the case of a poorly "designed" lumbar biomechanics, yes.

Cars can be designed to last as long or short as one cares to, I presume. But we're talking evolution here, and lumbar spine biomechanics in upright bipedal hominids is an absolute engineering nightmare, which leads to countless hours of time loss from work, billions of dollars of pain management, surgery, epidural steroid injections and rehab.

A first year engineering student would be able to "design" a spine that did a better job of distributing load and stress than our current anatomy.

Not all scientists agree with you.

https://evolutionnews.org/2011/08/the_spines_design/

 

[xianghua]

Not all scientists agree with you.

https://evolutionnews.org/2011/08/the_spines_design/

its funny that evolutionists can "detect" bad design but cant detect great design.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Not all scientists agree with you.

https://evolutionnews.org/2011/08/the_spines_design/

its funny that evolutionists can "detect" bad design but cant detect great design.

You both know that Evolution News is a subgroup of the Discovery Institute, a Christian group that heavily if not outright favours Intelligent Design over evolutionary theory, right?

 

[DogmaHunter]

You both know that Evolution News is a subgroup of the Discovery Institute, a Christian group that heavily if not outright favours Intelligent Design over evolutionary theory, right?

And who lie about what ID really is. cfr: cdesign proponentsists

 

[tas8831]

I look at anatomy and see elegant design. What more can I say?

Apparently nothing that actually supports your ignorance-based beliefs.

That you see elegant design in anatomy tells me that you didn't study it in any depth.

Perhaps you can explain the elegant design of the hyena pseudopenis, through which female hyenas must give birth, typically by biting off the end of the organ?

Lets see you design-based evaluation.

 

[tas8831]

Oh yeah.....from overexertion and lack of rest. The designer of our back gave us the remedy for that....a period of 24 hours of R&R each week.

Standard creationist antic - when backed into a conundrum, make a lame joke and call it quits.

Your earlier bluff and bluster has been reduced to one liners and topic changes.

A pretty standard course of events for creationists with unwarranted confidence in their position who finally run into knowledgeable people that are not impressed with assertions and condescension.

 

[tas8831]

Even mechanics are surprised at the mileage I put on my vehicles.

... this is how I avoid having to admit that I am out of my league... I give an irrelevant, folksy 'analogy'... Cuz that is the sort of thing that swayed me into rejecting science that I don't understand...

 

[tas8831]

Not all scientists agree with you.

https://evolutionnews.org/2011/08/the_spines_design/

That is so awesome how a cranky religious journalist (Klinghoffer) rants and raves about a subject that he is clearly very ignorant of.

For starters - the vertebral column is only referred to as 'the spine' by those that have not studied anatomy.

Why? Because 'spine' is an anatomical term for pointy projections from bone, not bones themselves, and certainly not a bunch of bones.

It saddens me to see how many medical-related websites call the vertebral column the spine - I suppose because relatively few people know the relevant terminology.

And Klinghoffer relies on Dan Lieberman, who claimed that if the human vertebral column was not adapted for bipedality, we would be extinct.

That seems to indicate not that this is so, but that Lieberman is a pan-adaptationist?

Interestingly, in an actual publication by Lieberman, we see:

"However, although85% of LBP cases have no clear etiology,97% may be due to musculoskeletal issue"

That is, there is no clear cause for 85% of lower back pain, but most may be due to musculoskeletal issues.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Standard creationist antic - when backed into a conundrum, make a lame joke and call it quits.

Your earlier bluff and bluster has been reduced to one liners and topic changes.

A pretty standard course of events for creationists with unwarranted confidence in their position who finally run into knowledgeable people that are not impressed with assertions and condescension.

What's funny about overexertion and lack of rest? You should dedicated a full day each week for rest. I think you'll be surprised by the benefits, physical and mental.

 

[omega2xx]

Riiiight.

I realise you don't recognise evidence when you see it (or if you recognise it, you handwave it away), but these things below are called references. The way this works is that you read them and come back with reasoned comments about the details they contain. I won't hold my breath.

Yano and Tamura, "The making of the differences between fins and limbs", Journal of Anatomy, here. Excellent review article, with a huge number of references.

Shubin, Tabin and Carroll, "Deep homology and the origins of evolutionary novelty", Nature 457, 818–823 (12 February 2009), another excellent review article from some of the foremost evolutionary biologists in one of the world's premier journals, covering more than fins and limbs

Davis, Dahn and Shubin, "An autopodial-like pattern of Hox expression in the fins of a basal actinopterygian fish", Nature 447, pages 473–476 (24 May 2007). A short quote from the abstract: "Here, we report on the expression and function of genes implicated in the origin of the autopod in a basal actinopterygian, Polyodon spathula. Polyodon exhibits a late-phase, inverted collinear expression of 5′ HoxD genes, a pattern of expression long considered a developmental hallmark of the autopod and shown in tetrapods to be controlled by a ‘digit enhancer’ region. These data show that aspects of the development of the autopod are primitive to tetrapods and that the origin of digits entailed the redeployment of ancient patterns of gene activity." (The autopod is the hand or foot of tetrapods).

Just as well to prepare for the flounce.

I just read about 12 post on this subject and not one included any verifiable evidence.

You guys and gals are pathetic.

Have a + day.


You would if you could but you can't.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I just read about 12 post on this subject and not one included any verifiable evidence.

You guys and gals are pathetic.

Have a + day.


You would if you could but you can't.

Here's an honest question....
When you request for evidence... what exactly is it, that you hope to receive?
Can you describe what kind of evidence you are looking for? Don't be afraid to be specific here.

Because you keep shooting everything down for no apparant reason.

So instead of leaving us guessing what you are looking for, perhaps try to be a bit more specific.

Use an example if that makes it easier.
What would be a valid piece of evidence, in your opinion?