• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How to choose between creation and evolution.

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Clearly.


You do, however, seem to suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect.



Sure you do. You and Trump.

Given the simplistic utterings you've produced (to include not knowing what an 'ad hom' is), a reasonable person concludes that your claims of high IQ are as bogus as your claim to be an 'alpha male.'

Since you have problems understanding this - this post is not an ad hom, as I am not countering an argument. I am just making an observation. :)

Clever. It's still an ad hom. (I'm a retired alpha male.)
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
More projection.

This is hilarious.

Alpha male = 100% un-self-aware?

Alpha male means I go my own way and don't take crap from anyone. That includes you. :wave:
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
So it's not 'falsifiable'?

Does the great intellect not understand the difference between "not falsifiable" and "not falsified"?

I have seen this rather absurd line of "argument" from creationists before - the notion that because evolution has not been falsified that it is not science because it is not falsifiable.

I don't understand how that works. Sort of like telling a 10 year old that because they are not at their adult height that they will never be an adult...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
There is a big difference between not taking crap from people and being dead wrong and refusing to examine the evidence that shows that you’re dead wrong
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
There is a big difference between not taking crap from people and being dead wrong and refusing to examine the evidence that shows that you’re dead wrong

Ad hom= crap.

I've seen enough evidence to know that not only can you not get here from there via evolution, but that evolution is false from the getgo. Science is unable to answer the most basic questions but instead dumps a gazillion "factoids" on the table and expects us to believe it adds up to their theory. You have an incomplete puzzle the size of a football field with more tiny pieces than can fit into the outline, with truckloads more arriving every day. You have built a "tower of Babylon" out of cards that reaches out of sight.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
To falsify evolution all you’d need are bunny fossils in the preCambrian. Which means that evolution is falsifiable . That type of evidence would prove that it’s wrong . Any out of place fossil which has not been obviously moved would do it. Now evolution hasn’t been falsified ( demonstrated to be wrong) because we haven’t found evidence for that.

Creationists like to claim that they have this evidence but their so-called evidence is usually something they’re mistaken about; have misunderstood completely, or some misinformation they’ve given out and refuse to correct. 3M. mistakes, misunderstandings and misinformation; that’s all you ever see with creationist publications
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Molecular Structure & Behavior

Molecular Structures
"Biophysics explains the biological functions of cells, tissues, and organisms in terms of the structure and behavior of biological molecules."


Unstable molecules form stable tissues

"Collagens are major structural proteins in the extracellular matrix, making up about one-third of protein mass in higher animals....
I rest my case.



If your case was "I don't know the difference between a protein and a tissue", then yes you did.

You see, Alpha Male wannabe, a TISSUE is:


Tissue

Definition

An aggregate of cells in an organism that have similar structure and function





Remember I wrote:

"Specialized tissues are not molecules."

And you copy paste some blather about how Collagen this that and the other IN connective tissues.

My gosh - your own link fails you:

"Collagens are major structural proteins in the extracellular matrix..."


This is what happens when non-biologist Dunning-Kruger effect poster children pretend that they understand biology.

Hilarious...
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others


If your case was "I don't know the difference between a protein and a tissue", then yes you did.

You see, Alpha Male wannabe, a TISSUE is:


Tissue

Definition

An aggregate of cells in an organism that have similar structure and function





Remember I wrote:

"Specialized tissues are not molecules."

And you copy paste some blather about how Collagen this that and the other IN connective tissues.

My gosh - your own link fails you:

"Collagens are major structural proteins in the extracellular matrix..."


This is what happens when non-biologist Dunning-Kruger effect poster children pretend that they understand biology.

Hilarious...

I said goodbye to you.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I've seen enough evidence to know that not only can you not get here from there via evolution, but that evolution is false from the getgo

And yet you don't know the difference between a tissue and a protein.

You've - by your own admission - only seen what your religious brainwashing programs you to see.
Too high on your own ego to recognize your intellectual shortcomings.


SCIENCE:


I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "



Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
There is a big difference between not taking crap from people and being dead wrong and refusing to examine the evidence that shows that you’re dead wrong


Such a refusal is an act of intellectual cowardice.

Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Alpha male means I go my own way and don't take crap from anyone. That includes you. :wave:


LOL!

TRANSLATION:

"When I make a fool of myself, I run away and claim victory anyway! COVFEFE!"
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,061
9,032
65
✟429,080.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
They can actually tell identical twins apart due to the fact that they don’t have truly identical DNA. Of course,they can tell ants from wasps but physically they grade into each other which means that the species separated recently (geologically speaking). Superficial similarities like birds,bats and insects having wings still prove deep common descent because the make-a-limb-here gene is involved in the development of all three.
That's an assumption because DNA proves otherwise
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,061
9,032
65
✟429,080.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
They can actually tell identical twins apart due to the fact that they don’t have truly identical DNA. Of course,they can tell ants from wasps but physically they grade into each other which means that the species separated recently (geologically speaking). Superficial similarities like birds,bats and insects having wings still prove deep common descent because the make-a-limb-here gene is involved in the development of all three.

All that does is show common design. It dies nothing to show common ancestry. In fact DNA shows they are not the same despite having similararities.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,061
9,032
65
✟429,080.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
And yet you don't know the difference between a tissue and a protein.

You've - by your own admission - only seen what your religious brainwashing programs you to see.

You are just another arrogant religionist, too high on your own ego to recognize your intellectual shortcomings.


SCIENCE:


I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "



Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."

More assumptive logic. If we are similar therefore we are related. And if we are related therefore we came from the same thing. Spiders cats cows cammels and humans all came from the same thing because we all have similarities. If course some our similarities are closer than others. As such assumptive hogwash. You cannot show anything like that occurring or that it is even possible. DNA still remains the factor that shows us what we are and what we aren't. We aren't chimps and chimps aren't cows. DNA proves that.
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,373
Frozen North
✟344,333.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Patterns don't either.

They actually do. But understanding that requires first understanding scientific theories, how scientific theories make predictions of expected observations, and those predictions can be tested. And of then understanding all of this in the context of theory of evolution and how it relates to the observed patterns of evidence which support the ToE.
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
More assumptive logic. If we are similar therefore we are related. .

So you ignored the first couple of citations.

Or didn't understand them.

I can explain them if you'd like.
 
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
And that still doesn’t change the fact that you have no evidence for creationism. You’d first have to have verifiable evidence for the existence of any deity (or alien) . Which you don’t have. Then you’d have to have verifiable evidence that your deity or alien actually did create anything. Again which you don’t have . Your problem is that you think the Bible is adequate for this purpose and even in the 1700s , naturalists knew it wasn’t. If they did think it was adequate to verify creation then they wouldn’t have tried to confirm it by actually looking for evidence

As a Christian I’m all for saying that but as a scientifically literate person, that’s not going to wash.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Clever. It's still an ad hom. (I'm a retired alpha male.)


No, it isn't.

And 'ad hom' is not "punctuation."

Typical for people who feel the need to call themselves "Alpha Males" are also incapable of admitting to having made even inconsequential errors.
 
Upvote 0