How to choose between creation and evolution.

[tas8831]

All anatomy reveals very complex design, down to the molecular (specialized tissue) level. Pick any organ or system and look closely at the organization of it. This is purposeful design, thus creation.

Mere assertions.


OK - let me pick... the human obturator foramen*.

Please provide evidence that it was created.

Specialized tissues are not molecules.

But tell us all, exactly, which molecules associated with the obturator foramen were created and provide the evidence for this. Tell me about the inductive processes that produced the specialized tissues associated with it, and show me the evidence that those processes and tissues were created.

Merely saying they were does not count. And do not engage in the burden shifting fallacy by demanding I prove they were not created. YOU claimed they were created, now show that you have more than overconfident assertions.

As a 'cell biologist' what is needed for a single cell to be viable as a living organism?
Did the first life form contain all the elements and resources to become what evolution claims it became? Evolution has to explain this as it claims to have started with the first life form.

Abiogenesis =|= evolution.

How does a cell change (either spontaneously or over time) to form 'specialize' tissue necessary for different functions.

Via the acquisition or the altered expression of genes. A Genetics class will cure your ignorance of this.

Are complex organs built one step at a time or all at once? For example, did the muscles that move eyeballs evolve later because we needed to look around without moving our heads, or did the whole system evolve together?

When did the eye/brain connection occur? How did the part of the brain that transforms the light coming into the eye into the image the brain sees evolve?

Did eyelids come later to protect the eyes, or were they in the original package?

Did the lubricant of 'tears' with it's drainage system evolve later because of 'dry eyes' or did evolution anticipate this need?

Is there any fossil evidence to support your answers?

Argument from personal incredulity coupled with burden shifting fallacy.


You could not support your assertions for even ONE exchange.

I suspect next you will bring out the bible verses?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'll pick a few things.


- the wisdom teeth of humans, which more often then not need to be pulled because our mouth is too small to accomodate them

.....

Evidence Is Mounting That Routine Wisdom Teeth Removal Is a Waste of Time

I still have mine, no problems. My dentist wanted to pull them years ago as they will eventually "give you trouble" he said. They never have and we laugh about it today.

 

[tas8831]

I'll pick a few things.

- the non-functioning eyes of moles, which are hidden away behind a layer of skin
- the broken GULO gene in primates
- the wisdom teeth of humans, which more often then not need to be pulled because our mouth is too small to accomodate them
- the human spine which not optimal for bipedalism, causing lower back pains in most humans at some point in their life
- the inactive teeth-building genes in chickens
- the appendix, which can explode and kill you
- the tube that humans use for both eating and breathing, making consuming food a process that can make you choke to death
- man nipples
- .....

The "alpha male" economist laughs. But I doubt you will get anything more than burden shifting and nonsense.

 

[tas8831]

From the link:

Our work has shown that in fact a partially formed eye can be very important for the ecology and survival of the animal, and that there is nothing inherently impossible about the evolution of the eye.

Also this one:

It has also been assumed that animals that live in the dark will gradually lose their eyes through evolution, like cavefish which have no functional eyes.


Sure, do go on. At least, if you wish to continue failing.

But he used the google! And I'm betting that the linked article was also featured on a creationist website!

 

[tas8831]

I made my point (without regard to evolution) that moles eyes in fact do function.

And left the others untouched.

Will you accept the same sort of argumentation, i.e., proving one thing in the bible wrong negates thew whole thing? I'm betting no.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Mere assertions.


OK - let me pick... the human obturator foramen*.

Please provide evidence that it was created.

Specialized tissues are not molecules.

But tell, exactly, which molecules associated with the obturator foramen were created and provide the evidence for this. Tell me about the inductive processes that produced the specialized tissues associated with it, and show me the evidence that those processes and tissues were created.

Merely saying they were does not count. And do not engage in the burden shifting fallacy by demanding I prove they were not created. YOU claimed they were created, now show that you have more than overconfident assertions.



Abiogenesis =|= evolution.


Via the acquisition or the altered expression of genes. A Genetics class will cure yourt ignorance of this.



Argument from personal incredulity coupled with burden shifting fallacy.


You could not support your assertions for even ONE exchange.

I suspect next you will bring out the bible verses?

So, you have no answers.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And left the others untouched.

Will you accept the same sort of argumentation, i.e., proving one thing in the bible wrong negates thew whole thing? I'm betting no.

I'm taking them one at a time. See post #882.

 

[tas8831]

So, you have no answers.

Except for the ones I provided - and as indicated you have nothing but assertions and personal incredulity and burden shifting.

You claimed that by studying anatomy you can tell that creation happened.

But you cannot show this for even 1 thing.

Alpha male.. right...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

- the human spine which not optimal for bipedalism, causing lower back pains in most humans at some point in their life

.....

Human back pain is the result of misuse, overwork, overweight, improper shoes, bad posture, lack of proper rest, etc. Nothing wrong with the design.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Except for the ones I provided - and as indicated you have nothing but assertions and personal incredulity and burden shifting.

You claimed that by studying anatomy you can tell that creation happened.

But you cannot show this for even 1 thing.

Alpha male.. right...

Typical ad hom punctuation I've come to expect. Grow up.

 

[VirOptimus]

Human back pain is the result of misuse, overwork, overweight, improper shoes, bad posture, lack of proper rest, etc. Nothing wrong with the design.

There is no design.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I made my point (without regard to evolution) that moles eyes in fact do function.

Altered function, that is.

Here's another paper discussing it:

Genetic Explanation For Moles' Poor Eyesight

The genetic information the authors amassed shows that the internal defects in the animals' eyes are not the result of an adult degenerative condition but because development of the eye lens fibres, which starts normally, is not completed. The expression of some genes that are central to eye development is also abnormal


You are correct though that my comment of "non-functioning eyes" was incorrect.
What you are not correct about is that it all is the result of design. As the paper you yourself provided also clearly states.

Now, weren't you going to continue going through the rest of my examples?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Evidence Is Mounting That Routine Wisdom Teeth Removal Is a Waste of Time

I still have mine, no problems. My dentist wanted to pull them years ago as they will eventually "give you trouble" he said. They never have and we laugh about it today.

You are unaware that they DO post big problems in MANY humans?

My wife had hers pulled a few years ago, after a few sleepless nights of extreme pains.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

- the tube that humans use for both eating and breathing, making consuming food a process that can make you choke to death
.....

God took care of that in the design of those systems, rather elegantly I'd say.

Epiglottis Function, Pictures & Definition | Body Maps

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You are unaware that they DO post big problems in MANY humans?

My wife had hers pulled a few years ago, after a few sleepless nights of extreme pains.

You asserted they caused problems in all humans.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Altered function, that is.

Here's another paper discussing it:

Genetic Explanation For Moles' Poor Eyesight

The genetic information the authors amassed shows that the internal defects in the animals' eyes are not the result of an adult degenerative condition but because development of the eye lens fibres, which starts normally, is not completed. The expression of some genes that are central to eye development is also abnormal


You are correct though that my comment of "non-functioning eyes" was incorrect.
What you are not correct about is that it all is the result of design. As the paper you yourself provided also clearly states.

Now, weren't you going to continue going through the rest of my examples?

You asserted they had no function.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

- the inactive teeth-building genes in chickens

.....

Without perusing any information about the subject I would venture a guess that turning off certain genes in the genome would result in different features and different critters. Pretty neat; a 'master genetic control center' that just needs to be tweaked slightly to produce a wide array of critters. No need for God to 'reinvent the wheel' with each species.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

- the appendix, which can explode and kill you
.....

What is the function of the human appendix? Did it once have a purpose that has since been lost?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Human back pain is the result of misuse, overwork, overweight, improper shoes, bad posture, lack of proper rest, etc. Nothing wrong with the design.

LOL!

If our spine didn't have that odd S shape (which is the result of evolution's tinkering with the original C shape optimized for quadruple locomotion), it would be able to take the stress.

Exactly, the very vulnerable human spine makes sure that humans are extremely prone to lower back pains.

 

[DogmaHunter]

God took care of that in the design of those systems, rather elegantly I'd say.

Epiglottis Function, Pictures & Definition | Body Maps

Right, because no human ever chokes on food.