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How to choose between creation and evolution.

AnotherAtheist

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It's extremely testable.

Agreed.

And has been repeatedly tested. When genomes could be sequenced that was a massive test for evolution. If genetics had not shown common descent, then evolution would have been out the window. But, like all the many other tests of evolution, it passed.
 
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mark kennedy

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In Darwin's own words his beliefs fluctuated considerably. The general trend was from Anglican Christianity to agnosticism. But, there is evidence that he was a believer at some points in his life, even though agnosticism grew quickly. Hence, I don't think it's accurate to say that he was never a Christian.

What his personal beliefs were I can't tell you, but I've never seen the slightest indication of a profession of faith. He describes being late to school one morning and prayed as he rushed to school. He said he was sure if it was the praying or the hurrying that helped his progress. He calls the doctrine of hell a, (expletive deleted), doctrine that would condemn his dad and bother to everlasting torment because they were both atheists. Today we look at a view like that and think, yea so what, but in that time it came as a shock to the church people in that day and age. This might sound a bit harsh but I simply see it as an expression of a naturalists worldview, a systemic pattern in his thought and work.

As above, there is evidence including Darwin's own words that he was not always agnostic and that he was a believer at some points in his life.

All I can tell you about that is he attended an Anglican church and accepted what he was being taught about special creation. This is a guy who knew so much about how favorable traits were passed on to the next generation that he married his cousin. One of the first things to be compromised is the immune system and he lost his daughter Anne to scarlet fever. In the wake of this terrible loss he published On the Origin of Species. Right up until his first book hit the presses he was in correspondence with the philosopher Asa Grey, who he mentions in the opening line of On the Origin of Species. Another philosophy was profoundly influenced and encouraged by Darwin's book, Karl Marx:

“Darwin has interested us in the history of Nature’s Technology, i.e., in the formation of the organs of plants and animals, which organs serve as instruments of production for sustaining life. Does not the history of the productive organs of man, of organs that are the material basis of all social organization, deserve equal attention?” (Das Kapital. Marx)
A little known fact, did you know the Scopes monkey trial had very little to do with evolution? The biggest issue was social Darwinism. Notice Marx emphasizes history and the 'material' basis for life and social organization. Now Darwin, some will tell you, was being encourage by Marx through correspondence to speak to the issues of religion which Darwin said he had always avoided. At the end of On the Origin of Species he even says he was certain his book should have no effect on the readers religious views.

My sole interest isn't to try to expose the inner recesses of Darwin's private beliefs but the effect of his philosophy of natural history on western academic and scientific thought. Darwinism, while being benign in many ways, is clearly a materialistic worldview that excludes God as cause categorically as a central premise. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, but it's evident, obvious and frankly an unavoidable core tenant.

Yes, the general concept of survival of the fittest and evolution can be applied to other domains. (E.g. genetic algorithms, evolutionary views of business marketplaces, etc.) Darwinism applied to other domains does not always work, in my opinion. E.g. I'm not sure that in businesses do survive or not based around survival of the fittest trends as clearly as living things.

The concept of survival of the fittest seems like a reaction to an ongoing population explosion that they were experiencing in the mid-nineteenth century. Based on the observations of Malthus there was something they would call the 'geomentric growth of populations', and the ensuing struggle for existence. It is also thought to be a leading influence on the reasoning of Oliver Wendel Holmes and his famous majority opinion on the issue of Eugenics:

Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), is a decision of the United States Supreme Court, written by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., in which the Court ruled that a state statute permitting compulsory sterilization of the unfit, including the intellectually disabled, "for the protection and health of the state"
A decision by the way, that was never overturned by the Supreme Court.

I accept that these are your conclusions. But, I've also looked into these things and revised them now to check, and I don't agree on Darwin never having been a Christian.

I don't know and I'm not sure it's all that important. All I know is he quietly acknowledge certain thing religiously but I've yet to see a profession of faith. What interests me is his influence on science, politics and legal theory. Whatever it was in his heart and mind it has become a catalyst for dialectical materialism and has exercised a deep and lasting influence.
 
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DogmaHunter

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What his personal beliefs were I can't tell you, but I've never seen the slightest indication of a profession of faith. He describes being late to school one morning and prayed as he rushed to school. He said he was sure if it was the praying or the hurrying that helped his progress. He calls the doctrine of hell a, (expletive deleted), doctrine that would condemn his dad and bother to everlasting torment because they were both atheists. Today we look at a view like that and think, yea so what, but in that time it came as a shock to the church people in that day and age. This might sound a bit harsh but I simply see it as an expression of a naturalists worldview, a systemic pattern in his thought and work.



All I can tell you about that is he attended an Anglican church and accepted what he was being taught about special creation. This is a guy who knew so much about how favorable traits were passed on to the next generation that he married his cousin. One of the first things to be compromised is the immune system and he lost his daughter Anne to scarlet fever. In the wake of this terrible loss he published On the Origin of Species. Right up until his first book hit the presses he was in correspondence with the philosopher Asa Grey, who he mentions in the opening line of On the Origin of Species. Another philosophy was profoundly influenced and encouraged by Darwin's book, Karl Marx:

“Darwin has interested us in the history of Nature’s Technology, i.e., in the formation of the organs of plants and animals, which organs serve as instruments of production for sustaining life. Does not the history of the productive organs of man, of organs that are the material basis of all social organization, deserve equal attention?” (Das Kapital. Marx)
A little known fact, did you know the Scopes monkey trial had very little to do with evolution? The biggest issue was social Darwinism. Notice Marx emphasizes history and the 'material' basis for life and social organization. Now Darwin, some will tell you, was being encourage by Marx through correspondence to speak to the issues of religion which Darwin said he had always avoided. At the end of On the Origin of Species he even says he was certain his book should have no effect on the readers religious views.

My sole interest isn't to try to expose the inner recesses of Darwin's private beliefs but the effect of his philosophy of natural history on western academic and scientific thought. Darwinism, while being benign in many ways, is clearly a materialistic worldview that excludes God as cause categorically as a central premise. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, but it's evident, obvious and frankly an unavoidable core tenant.

1. personal beliefs have no relevance when it comes to scientific explanations concerning phenomena in objective reality.

2. whenever biological evolution is being invoked in terms of how to organize a society, it is being misapplied. Biological evolution is ONLY about the physical processes that shape species.

3. evolution doesn't exclude a god or anything supernatural. At best, it just has no need for supernatural intervention when it comes to the development of species.

The concept of survival of the fittest seems like a reaction to an ongoing population explosion that they were experiencing in the mid-nineteenth century. Based on the observations of Malthus there was something they would call the 'geomentric growth of populations', and the ensuing struggle for existence. It is also thought to be a leading influence on the reasoning of Oliver Wendel Holmes and his famous majority opinion on the issue of Eugenics:

Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), is a decision of the United States Supreme Court, written by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., in which the Court ruled that a state statute permitting compulsory sterilization of the unfit, including the intellectually disabled, "for the protection and health of the state"
A decision by the way, that was never overturned by the Supreme Court.

This is again borderlining "social organization", which is a misapplication of biological evolution. "fit" in "survival of the fittest", doesn't mean "stronger, faster, more intelligent" or something like that. It just means "highest chance of survival and reproduction".

I don't know and I'm not sure it's all that important.

It isn't. It doesn't matter at all, in context of evolution theory being valid or not.

All I know is he quietly acknowledge certain thing religiously but I've yet to see a profession of faith. What interests me is his influence on science, politics and legal theory. Whatever it was in his heart and mind it has become a catalyst for dialectical materialism and has exercised a deep and lasting influence.

That's nonsense.

His scientific work in biology, is what had deep and lasting influence. And not for some romantic or (ir)religious reasons. But simply because of the impeccable explanatory power. Because of its scientific accuracy and validity.

That no supernatural bits are part of this theory, is only due to the fact that there aren't any demonstrable supernatural factors manifested in any part of this process. That's it.


Like always: it matters not what personal beliefs scientists have. What matters is their scientific work and what they can (and can't) demonstrate.
 
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xianghua

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I'll repeat the last sentence of the post you replied to: What you are suggesting would not be a watch. It would be LIKE a watch, but it wouldn't BE a watch.
so again: this isnt a watch if its able to replicate:
004-1_x500.jpg
 
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rjs330

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They became damaged and the damage was passed down to their offspring. ERV insertions are a good example of this kind of thing and are useful in tracing evolutionary lines of descent. Because they are random, if two different species have them in the same location the odds are they are related.

I don't pretend to be a geneticist. But I can read up on the subject. I have discovered that evolutionists are interpreting data based upon a point of view. For example the broken vitamin C Gene. They point to that and say it shows we and chimps have a common ancestor. Yet bats and guinnea pigs have the same thing. Why are they saying we and bats or guinnea pigs come from the same ancestor? Well I guess they do because we all came from the same thing in the very beginning. But that's not the branch they take.

We are discovering that DNA, even junk DNA has function.

Do Genes Prove Evolution?
 
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rjs330

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Stories aren't evidence and neither are a bunch of rocks. Rocks could have come from anywhere.

So far you're not producing any evidence because you can't prove the moon exists. We have never observed it; it's not testable, replicable or verifiable.



There are no moon rocks.
You are making a common mistake. We have moon rocks and we have tested them.

Evolution does not gave a common ancestor. Evolution does not have people who have seen it happen. Evolution does not gave an ability to show you a tested product. NASA can show you a moon rocks and the proven tests to show it is one and in fact could do the test right in front of you. Please show me an actual evolution of the cat and where it branched off of whatever it branched off of and where the other branches evolved into. Show me the test that can prove that and show me the observation of that.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Does it?
Then why do all professionals who actually study life, conclude evolution instead?

All?

Seeing design (where design is clearly evident) implies a designer, which is contrary to the dogma of evolution. And as stated earlier I believe that surgeons are more concerned with the design of the person they are cutting into than their evolutionary origins.
 
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rjs330

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There are plenty of examples of speciation that have been observed. Evolution: Watching Speciation Occur | Observations

And it matters nowt that, e.g. we haven't yet found the common ancestor of humans and chimps. Since we know there is a common ancestor of humans and chimps (let alone the rest) given all the evidence I've given. Which you have been spectacularly unable to address.



I've shown you utter loads of evidence. I've explained why it is testable, verifiable, and objective. And why the observations are reproducible. You've been unable to address even one example. You just dodge. You just stonewall. You have no evidence at all for your own view of how life started, and you just try to arm-wave away and created ridiculous objections to evidence that you simply have no cogent response to.

And here's a question for you: Can you explain how if chimps and humans have a common ancestor and are different species, that there won't have been at least one species branching off another. Either we branched off chimps, chimps branched off us, or we both branched off a common separate species. And we know from fossil evidence that there has been a succession of species since that time. Branching off all over the place.

EDIT: The analogy of denying the moon is very apt. Anyone can simply dig their heels in and deny anything. Your denial of evolution and the evidence for it is no more reasonable than stonewalling denial of evidence that there is a moon.

As is evidenced by your response we humans can interpret anything to fit our idea. We and chimps dont have a common ancestor. You assume we do based upon your interpretation. Creationists look at the same science and interpret it to mean common design.

Speciation is not common ancestry evolution. Those things are still what they were. They didn't or aren't branching off to become something else. At some point you have to be able to point to a common ancestor for us, the bat, the rhino, the chimp, the worm and the spider. But you can't. You can show bacteria adapting into a different kind of bacteria, but it's still bacteria. You can show a lizard adapting its digestive tract in order to survive, but it's still a lizard. It remains in the same family or group.

Common ancestry claims that something evolved into a different family or group than it was in the beginning. This they believe without any observable evidence of it occurring even today.
 
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rjs330

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Many of your coreligionists believe the whole moon trip was a fake, concocted by the same secular humanist conspiracy that gave us the theory of evolution.
I think there are plenty of evolutionists who think the same thing. That really proves nothing.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Correcting your mistakes and actually learning something, doesn't seem to be one of your priorities...

Ad homs are not a good argument.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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For all practical purposes, yes.

You do realize that the world is falling apart because of the 'general agreement' of the experts.
 
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rjs330

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Buildings aren't biological entities that are subject to the processes of biology.
But you do understand that when we observe things that have a function we see the design in them. We never look at anything that has a function and say, it has no design or designer. Exept of course with the most complex system of life. That happened by accident. Biology is the most amazing thing ever in it's complexity and it's ability to continue to exist and reproduce. Yet we absolutely refuse to consider it was designed to function the way it does. It's illogical.
 
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rjs330

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No. Because of phylogenies that match comparative genetics, anatomy, geographic distribution, the fossil record,...



Nested hierarchies. Aka, a family tree.



How do you think that biological paternity is established in court cases?
Word against word?
Or is there perhaps some kind of objective genetic test that can be done?




It's extremely testable.

The hierarchies themselves are an assumption. You have no evidence of any of it actually occurring. You believe they occurred based upon similarity and commonality. But that's it. You cannot show any evidence of it ever having happened.

And DNA in court cases is human DNA. They can use it because it's human DNA. They can't use chimp DNA because using DNA we can know if it was a chimp or a human.
 
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DogmaHunter

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so again: this isnt a watch if its able to replicate:
004-1_x500.jpg

The thing depicted in that picture, is not able to replicate.

A watch is a manufactured mechanical device. Not a biological organism.

Give it a rest already.
 
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rjs330

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Agreed.

And has been repeatedly tested. When genomes could be sequenced that was a massive test for evolution. If genetics had not shown common descent, then evolution would have been out the window. But, like all the many other tests of evolution, it passed.
All that proves is common design. Common ancestry is assumed.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You are making a common mistake. We have moon rocks and we have tested them.

Evolution does not gave a common ancestor. Evolution does not have people who have seen it happen. Evolution does not gave an ability to show you a tested product. NASA can show you a moon rocks and the proven tests to show it is one and in fact could do the test right in front of you. Please show me an actual evolution of the cat and where it branched off of whatever it branched off of and where the other branches evolved into. Show me the test that can prove that and show me the observation of that.

You make the typical mistake of confusing evolutionary history, with the process of evolution.

It is very unlikely (I'ld even say impossible) that we will ever be able to unravel the specific ancestral bloodlines of each and every species.

But more importantly, it is not at all necessary.
Just like we don't need to know who exactly your parents were, to be able to determine who your siblings are - based on DNA alone.
 
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xianghua

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Yes you can. It's called engineering design and the people at Zeiss are quite good at designing lenses and optical equipment.

but they cnat design eyes. right?


No, you found one blog post claiming that. However, if you look further and see what people who know what they are doing are saying, e.g. lens designers, you can see that the blog is wrong.

as far as i aware those are scientific sources base on scientific papers:

https://phys.org/news/2014-07-fiber-optic-pipes-retina-simple.html

"Having the photoreceptors at the back of the retina is not a design constraint, it is a design feature. The idea that the vertebrate eye, like a traditional front-illuminated camera, might have been improved somehow if it had only been able to orient its wiring behind the photoreceptor layer, like a cephalopod, is folly"

or:

Phys. Rev. Lett. 104, 158102 (2010) - Retinal Glial Cells Enhance Human Vision Acuity

"The retina is revealed as an optimal structure designed for improving the sharpness of images"

where do you see that they are claiming otherwise?
 
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DogmaHunter

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All that proves is common design. Common ancestry is assumed.

It is not.

If organisms share ancestry, then very specific testable predictions naturally flow from that.
Just like the collective DNA of you and your siblings, tells us that you have the same parents - not that you were created seperatly by the same "designer".
 
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