how the american left is incompatible with constitutional liberty

[notto]

Who's the real coward here - me, or someone who is unwilling to prove what they are saying about "leftists"?

How immature. You go ahead and put me on your ignore list. We all know that the real reason you're placing me on ignore is the fact that you don't have the arguments to back up your claims.

Just don't expect us to let you continue posting this garbage without asking for proof.
Ringo

Careful, you don't want to invoke the wrath of the New Sons of Liberty!

(I hear they have lapel pins and a secret hand shake).

 

[Blackguard_]

The New Sons of Liberty?

What do they do, throw Leftist textbooks into San Diego Bay?

 

[blueapplepaste]

liberals use the seperation of church and state to drown out conservative/christian curriculum in the class room, yet they bend over backwards to accomidate muslims and atheists who need their magic carpet prayer time or they don't like saying God in the pledge of Allegiance. It's a bunch of crap. Guess what? the seperation only exists with Christian viewpoints in the class room, while atheists teachers/professors go on unchecked rants about how evil christianity is. Screw that. This is America. The government cannot dicatate what qualifies as violation of the so called "seperation of church and state" without violating the second clause of the first amendment (limiting the free excercise thereof).

Fine. Lets get rid of separation of church and state. Lets allow teachers to lead their classroom in prayer. I guess then, that you would have no problem with your children being lead in prayer to Allah then? I mean teachers should be allowed to pray in the classroom right?

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Fine. Lets get rid of separation of church and state. Lets allow teachers to lead their classroom in prayer. I guess then, that you would have no problem with your children being lead in prayer to Allah then? I mean teachers should be allowed to pray in the classroom right?

you bet. I wouldn't care as long as my child was exempt from praying along. a teacher can say whatever prayer they want as long as kids aren't forced to say it. people have the right to be offended.

 

[JohnElias]

you bet. I wouldn't care as long as my child was exempt from praying along. a teacher can say whatever prayer they want as long as kids aren't forced to say it. people have the right to be offended.

Although I'm not a parent, and I'm keeping kids out of my cookbook for quite a while (at least until I have a career appointment), I'm going to wager quite a disagreement with you on this one. Considering attendance to school is effectively mandatory, the last thing I want is to have my kid as part of the captive audience of some evangelist, fundamentalist, Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Rastafarian. Not for a second would I approve of forcing kids to subject to religious proclamations that they, or their parents/guardians, may not agree with. I'd probably be fine if the instructor were Catholic, but I'm going to wager a guess that three-quarters of the country would be uncomfortable subjecting their child to that sort of religious instruction, and even I would be a little worried that the school of thought projected by the instructor could be one that I would be opposed to.

Never, ever, ever, should my child, my brother, or my sister, be forced to listen to any man preach a religion that the child, or its parents, are not in agreement with. One sure aspect of freedom is the right not to be subjected to another's religion involuntarily.

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Although I'm not a parent, and I'm keeping kids out of my cookbook for quite a while (at least until I have a career appointment), I'm going to wager quite a disagreement with you on this one. Considering attendance to school is effectively mandatory, the last thing I want is to have my kid as part of the captive audience of some evangelist, fundamentalist, Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Rastafarian. Not for a second would I approve of forcing kids to subject to religious proclamations that they, or their parents/guardians, may not agree with. I'd probably be fine if the instructor were Catholic, but I'm going to wager a guess that three-quarters of the country would be uncomfortable subjecting their child to that sort of religious instruction, and even I would be a little worried that the school of thought projected by the instructor could be one that I would be opposed to.

Never, ever, ever, should my child, my brother, or my sister, be forced to listen to any man preach a religion that the child, or its parents, are not in agreement with. One sure aspect of freedom is the right not to be subjected to another's religion involuntarily.

preaching and prayer are two different things. I certainly don't advocate teachers acting as pastors. teachers should stick to the subject they are paid to teach. prayer is quite appropriate however in times of grief. heck, we prayed on 9/11. I guess country folks don't make a big fuss outta prayer like them city slicker atheists.

 

[Adivi]

preaching and prayer are two different things. I certainly don't advocate teachers acting as pastors. teachers should stick to the subject they are paid to teach. prayer is quite appropriate however in times of grief. heck, we prayed on 9/11. I guess country folks don't make a big fuss outta prayer like them city slicker atheists.

There's nothing wrong with prayer in public schools per se. What is wrong, however, is school-led or teacher-led prayer. But I guess that distinction is only one for 'them city slicker atheists', since it appears to be lost on you 'country folks'.

 

[JohnElias]

preaching and prayer are two different things. I certainly don't advocate teachers acting as pastors. teachers should stick to the subject they are paid to teach. prayer is quite appropriate however in times of grief. heck, we prayed on 9/11. I guess country folks don't make a big fuss outta prayer like them city slicker atheists.

Preaching and prayer are two different and closely interconnected things. I certainly don't advocate teachers acting as pastors, and most certainly they should stick to the subject(s) which they are paid to teach, and for the more motivated among them, dedicate additional hours to supporting extra-curricular activities. I cannot see how a teacher could lead a classroom in prayer, and simultaneously distances that from preaching. Were I a teacher and to lead a prayer directed towards Saint Perpetua (as it is her feast day), asking her assistance, I do not see how this could not be interconnected with indoctrinating my students into my faith. Were a Muslim to spout Islamic theology into his prayer, how could this not be a theological subversion of what the majority Christian students were being taught by their parents and church back at home.

Prayer is quite appropriate in times of grief, and on 9/11 my school allowed any student any amount of time off if they asked for it (and surprising me at the time, this was not taken advantage of by the students to simply get out of class). I'm certain that many of them prayed... and I know that plenty of students prayed at lunch that day. This coming to you from Seattle, a true bastion of liberalism, and the heart of the so-called "Soviet Republic of Washington". But would it be okay if as an instructor I were sitting there forcing my students to be a captive audience as I pleaded with Mother Mary to intercesse on behalf of those who died on 9/11? Not in the least - and these students should have the freedom to not be subjected to the religious beliefs and views held by their instructors.

Are you suggesting that I am a city-slicker athiest? Sure, I'm a city-slicker... I came from a major west-coast metropolis, and even today live in a small college town in California. On the other hand, my profession is definitively not "city-slicker" work, and I definitely am not an athiest, no matter how you condemn anyone who doesn't agree with your political viewpoints as a "non-Christian".

I just want for my kids, the freedom of religion - to believe in the manner of their choosing, to pray as they believe, to worship as they are inclined, and to never be force-fed somebody else's religious beliefs. Freedom is key.

 

[Ringo84]

you bet. I wouldn't care as long as my child was exempt from praying along. a teacher can say whatever prayer they want as long as kids aren't forced to say it. people have the right to be offended.

Once again, you're incorrect. Teachers cannot lead their students in prayer. Period.
Ringo

 

[tulc]

I guess country folks don't make a big fuss outta prayer like them city slicker atheists.

well.... I suspect it's more along the line of: country folks tend to have a certain uniformity in their town? as opposed to us city slickers that have lots and LOTS of different people with different beliefs. All of them just as valid because hey, it's their city too.
tulc(just a thought)

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Preaching and prayer are two different and closely interconnected things. I certainly don't advocate teachers acting as pastors, and most certainly they should stick to the subject(s) which they are paid to teach, and for the more motivated among them, dedicate additional hours to supporting extra-curricular activities. I cannot see how a teacher could lead a classroom in prayer, and simultaneously distances that from preaching. Were I a teacher and to lead a prayer directed towards Saint Perpetua (as it is her feast day), asking her assistance, I do not see how this could not be interconnected with indoctrinating my students into my faith. Were a Muslim to spout Islamic theology into his prayer, how could this not be a theological subversion of what the majority Christian students were being taught by their parents and church back at home.

Prayer is quite appropriate in times of grief, and on 9/11 my school allowed any student any amount of time off if they asked for it (and surprising me at the time, this was not taken advantage of by the students to simply get out of class). I'm certain that many of them prayed... and I know that plenty of students prayed at lunch that day. This coming to you from Seattle, a true bastion of liberalism, and the heart of the so-called "Soviet Republic of Washington". But would it be okay if as an instructor I were sitting there forcing my students to be a captive audience as I pleaded with Mother Mary to intercesse on behalf of those who died on 9/11? Not in the least - and these students should have the freedom to not be subjected to the religious beliefs and views held by their instructors.

Are you suggesting that I am a city-slicker athiest? Sure, I'm a city-slicker... I came from a major west-coast metropolis, and even today live in a small college town in California. On the other hand, my profession is definitively not "city-slicker" work, and I definitely am not an athiest, no matter how you condemn anyone who doesn't agree with your political viewpoints as a "non-Christian".

I just want for my kids, the freedom of religion - to believe in the manner of their choosing, to pray as they believe, to worship as they are inclined, and to never be force-fed somebody else's religious beliefs. Freedom is key.

so a teacher of faith has no right to say a prayer out loud? I guess my teachers didn't follow that rule. Come and get us ACLU. I know if I was a teacher, I certainly wouldn't be afraid to freely express my faith through prayer. No man made law would keep me from doing it either. My reverance for God wouldn't let me sit silently in times of chaos (9/11 for example). As a Christian, I am called to minister to others in times of chaos, grief, violence, and dispair. As a teacher and leader of the class room, it's very important to be act as a spiritual leader in these circumstances.

Around here, prayer is a way of life. We did it at all of our football games. Coaches prayed with students out loud in the locker room before the games. When the liberal bureaucrats try and stop us from expressing our faith through prayer, we take it personal.

 

[Adivi]

Before I continue, I should probably note that the whole prayer in schools argument only applies to public, state-funded schools.

so a teacher of faith has no right to say a prayer out loud?

No, of course they do. What they are not allowed to do is to tell the students to pray with them.

As a teacher and leader of the class room, it's very important to be act as a spiritual leader in these circumstances.

Not really; the purpose of a teacher is to educate, not 'be a spiritual leader'.

Around here, prayer is a way of life. We did it at all of our football games. Coaches prayed with students out loud in the locker room before the games. When the liberal bureaucrats try and stop us from expressing our faith through prayer, we take it personal.

Nothing wrong with prayer in and of itself. The problem is when the teacher says "OK kids, now let's pray to our lord Jesus Christ/Allah/God/whatever".

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Before I continue, I should probably note that the whole prayer in schools argument only applies to public, state-funded schools.

No, of course they do. What they are not allowed to do is to tell the students to pray with them.

Not really; the purpose of a teacher is to educate, not 'be a spiritual leader'.

Nothing wrong with prayer in and of itself. The problem is when the teacher says "OK kids, now let's pray to our lord Jesus Christ/Allah/God/whatever".

and I've never advocated mandatory prayer. however, the ACLU tends to have a fit when a teacher says a prayer out loud in the class room or a prayer is spoken over the intercom.

 

[notto]

Around here, prayer is a way of life. We did it at all of our football games. Coaches prayed with students out loud in the locker room before the games. When the liberal bureaucrats try and stop us from expressing our faith through prayer, we take it personal.

So this is an example of the unsafe, ineffective, and morally void public schools in your area?

 

[LonesomeTexan]

So this is an example of the unsafe, ineffective, and morally void public schools in your area?

God bless Texas.

 

[Ringo84]

and I've never advocated mandatory prayer. however, the ACLU tends to have a fit when a teacher says a prayer out loud in the class room or a prayer is spoken over the intercom.

As well they should. Schoolwide prayer is unConstitutional.
Ringo

 

[Adivi]

and I've never advocated mandatory prayer. however, the ACLU tends to have a fit when a teacher says a prayer out loud in the class room or a prayer is spoken over the intercom.

Really? Name one such case.

 

[notto]

God bless Texas.

Apparently with low test scores and high teenage pregnancy rates. Hows that prayer in school working out?

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Apparently with low test scores and high teenage pregnancy rates. Hows that prayer in school working out?

I managed all right. I can't say the same for the idiots I graduated with. 1250 SAT score (not bad for taking it one time only).

 

[Adivi]

I managed all right. I can't say the same for the idiots I graduated with. 1250 SAT score (not bad for taking it one time only).

I got a 1490 in my prayer-less school, so therefore prayer makes people dumber.
I figure, as long as we're going with allegorical evidence here...