How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Catherineanne]

What things do we take on faith? (faith being defined as believing something without evidence or reason to do so)

I gave some examples already. But you have slipped in another weasel; I don't believe in my faith counter to evidence or reason.

Again, nice try but no cigar. My own experiences and reason coincide with my faith.

But accepting your conclusion, fine. I pick the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Do you regard my choice as irrational? Why?

No, if you want to believe in the spaghetti monster, then go ahead.

Why should it bother me?

 

[AV1611VET]

What would be an accepted sample size for concluding anything about a populace?

I would have assumed you would have included yourself in that populace -- but I think you made a Freudian slip.

 

[AV1611VET]

Which question?

Go figure.

 

[Insane_Duck]

I gave some examples already. But you have slipped in another weasel; I don't believe in my faith counter to evidence or reason.

Again, nice try but no cigar. My own experiences and reason coincide with my faith.

I missed your examples, which is why I asked for them...

As for believing faith counter to reality, I'm glad you don't believe so. But AVET here clearly does.

No, if you want to believe in the spaghetti monster, then go ahead.

Why should it bother me?

I'm glad you respect my Pastafarianism.

 

[Catherineanne]

I would be inclined to side with the priest. Besides, I like biscuits too... with jam or preserves.. and a heaping glass of milk...

A born Anglo Catholic if ever I met one.

Well, I certainly appreciate that you aren't pretending to know the answer and aren't just making something up on the spot. A lot of people around here tend to do that.

True enough.

I suppose I am technically saved, if you're of the persuasion that "once saved, always saved."

I am indeed. A name once written in the Book of Life cannot be erased.

Therefore, either you were not actually saved (terrible term, but what can you do?) or else you still are. And only you and God know the answer to that one. Were you sincere at the time? If so, you're in, imo.

 

[Insane_Duck]

AVET: You countered a statement I made, and I defended my self... Is there a relevant point you would like to make? I would appreciate it if you cut to the chase.

 

[Catherineanne]

I missed your examples, which is why I asked for them...

As for believing faith counter to reality, I'm glad you don't believe so. But AVET here clearly does.

Dear old AV knows perfectly well that the day he and I agree on anything beyond Nicene is the day I change my mind on that point immediately.

I'm glad you respect my Pastafarianism.

I am sure there are many less sensible things to believe. For example, that God made the world in six days, 6,000 years ago.

 

[AV1611VET]

AVET: You countered a statement I made, and I defended my self... Is there a relevant point you would like to make? I would appreciate it if you cut to the chase.

Link please?

Unlike you, I don't think there's anything in this ... conversation ... I haven't comment on.

 

[Oncedeceived]

On top of that 99% of them could not read the book they were swearing on and had to rely on others the tell them what it said, plus they didn't know what the universe was because all they could see were the stars and wouldn't know what they were looking at anyway.

Religions used peoples ignorance to spread the word, they made promises they knew they would never need to keep,
why would Islam promise 72 virgins and Christianity promise everlasting life? because they knew it would be believed because the people were ignorant and wanted to believe.

The Christian faith is based on the life of Christ. The New Testament was written just a short forty years after his death. Those who followed Christ at the time were killed for their preaching of the Gospel. People will die for something they believe is true but they won't die for a lie. If those who followed Christ did not see Him resurrected, they would not have chosen to go out and face persecution and death just to promote a lie. It wasn't only the disciples that saw Christ after He was put to death, and if they were lying the people would have known and the church would never have gotten off the ground.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Link please?

Not sure how to link to a individual post. It's post 121.

I addressed the challenge... so... Good day to you.

 

[Insane_Duck]

The Christian faith is based on the life of Christ. The New Testament was written just a short forty years after his death. Those who followed Christ at the time were killed for their preaching of the Gospel. People will die for something they believe is true but they won't die for a lie. If those who followed Christ did not see Him resurrected, they would not have chosen to go out and face persecution and death just to promote a lie. It wasn't only the disciples that saw Christ after He was put to death, and if they were lying the people would have known and the church would never have gotten off the ground.

What evidence do you have that they were martyred at all? Do you have anyone that you've confirmed had seen the "risen lord" and then martyred themselves?

40 years of telephone in the illiterate back alleys of the middle east is a long time. Especially with all of the Messiahs floating around at the time.

 

[dad]

From my observations I concluded which sources are trustworthy to a certain degree. I then used my senses to receive information from them. (disclaimer: I could be wrong )

Among your observations was not what was inside of people's inner beings, and experiences. So your uncertainty principle of maybe being wrong is intensified greatly when you question what they know, not just what you are unsure of yourself.

Depends how you define the two words. Under the conventional definition, you would be wrong. How would you define them?

Religion....having to do with belief. Science...having to do with belief.

Whether I "need" something or not, doesn't determine whether it's there or not.

No, but facing a need means that we realize we could not do it alone.

 

[Catherineanne]

What evidence do you have that they were martyred at all? Do you have anyone that you've confirmed had seen the "risen lord" and then martyred themselves?

40 years of telephone in the illiterate back alleys of the middle east is a long time. Especially with all of the Messiahs floating around at the time.

If you seriously want to examine the historicity of the gospels and of early Christian tradition, then there are ways of doing that, beginning with the early Church Fathers.

Church Fathers

The early Church Fathers fall into three basic categories: Apostolic Fathers, ante-Nicene Church Fathers, and post-Nicene Church Fathers.
The Apostolic Church Fathers were contemporaries of the apostles and were probably taught by them, carrying on the tradition and teaching of the apostles themselves as their direct successors. Examples of Apostolic Fathers would be Clement and Polycarp.
The ante-Nicene Fathers were those who came after the apostolic fathers and before the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325. Such individuals as Irenaeus and Justin Martyr are ante-Nicene fathers.
The post-Nicene church fathers are such noted men as Augustine, John Chrysostom, Jerome, and Eusebius.

Early Church Fathers | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I am not sure such a study would begin with making disparaging comments about back alleys of the Middle East, however.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not sure how to link to a individual post. It's post 121.

Just highlight the number that is in the upper right-hand of the post, then copy-and-paste.

And post 121 is my post, not yours.

I addressed the challenge... so... Good day to you.

Before you leave, I'll ask again for you to please answer this: 154

(Without giving me the entire scientific method, of course.)

 

[selfinflikted]

Were you sincere at the time? If so, you're in, imo.

I most certainly was.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Just highlight the number that is in the upper right-hand of the post, then copy-and-paste.

And post 121 is my post, not yours.

Before you leave, I'll ask again for you to please answer this: 154

(Without giving me the entire scientific method, of course.)

Yes, it's yours, it was how this whole thing started, and I've answered the initial remark in 121.

What I do with it depends on the nature of the thing that didn't fit into my world view.

Catherineanne: Your link doesn't cite sources, just makes claims.

Dad:

Among your observations was not what was inside of people's inner beings, and experiences. So your uncertainty principle of maybe being wrong is intensified greatly when you question what they know, not just what you are unsure of yourself.

So if I told you that in my inner being I knew that FSM was the one true God, would you believe me? Remember, I know absolutely that I'm right, so how can you contradict me?

Religion....having to do with belief. Science...having to do with belief.

Sigh...

No, but facing a need means that we realize we could not do it alone.

So we question whether we do it in the first place.

 

[Jazer]

What evidence do you have that they were martyred at all?

What they call the early church fathers. There were a lot of books written back then. Most of them are available for free on the internet. In fact there are books that have been hidden away in monasteries for thousands of years. The monks are scanning them into the computer and making them available for the first time. One of the first libraries they found did not even have books, they were all clay tablets and they go back 1000 years before Moses. It is interesting that they talk about people living for 1000 years before the flood. They have law books that go back before Moses. Hittite laws, the Assyrian laws, and of course the Babylonian law

 

[Oncedeceived]

The Christian god.



So god must be baited?

I wish I knew the answer to why some people say that they are sincerely searching for God and that they have no answer. I can only use my experience in my own life and that does nothing for yours or others that are searching. I know in my case, God gave me a poke so to speak in when I was in a bad way when I was fifteen. I really didn't get all religious or anything, I just knew that something had happened and I thought it was God. For years I lived my life and didn't give God to much thought...if any, I don't remember really thinking about it much. I then began to feel little pulls of God thoughts and became a Christian, joined a church and loved it.
I just didn't understand though how some people just had so much faith and were so certain of God's existence. I didn't have that. So after a time I began to think that the all roads lead to God was the way to go. I studied other religions for many years. So I wasn't thinking Christian God in particular at this point but a friend of mine said something that just hit me like it was right from God. I just felt it really was and it was the Christian God. So I told God that I really wanted Him to show me that He was God and the only God. He has blown me away with everything He has revealed to me since then.

So as you can see, this is just my experience, so I don't know what God wants from you or anyone else before He reveals himself. I just know that in the early years I wanted to know God but He didn't reveal Himself to me then. It was many years later and a complete letting go before He revealed Himself to me.

This is another thing as well, God reveals certain facets of Himself to different people so it is interesting to see that people have very differing view of Him. I know that people want to intellectualize God but it seems when you just let Him in without restrictions it works the best.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Fair enough. Try your own heart; that is where he is. Failing that, next time you are in town and you see a homeless person selling the Big Issue (if you have such a thing in the US), go and buy a copy, look him in the eye and you will see God looking back at you.



Yes, whoever seeks will find. But God prompts the seeking.

I am not sure if this is an accurate statement. It is too easy to say that God pick and chooses who comes to Him and who doesn't. When the Bible says that God wants all to come to Him. So God does prompt the seeking but some are not getting the signal for some reason and God only knows why.

 

[Oncedeceived]

But the verse that you quoted doesn't state or even imply that it "depends on what you are looking for".

There are cases that someone knocks and says, "Hey God you there"? Then they seek, " I don't see evidence for you", then they ask, "how can I believe if I can't intellectually understand how you can exist". God is silent. Maybe proof of God is not at our command. Maybe we have to knock and listen for His answer. We need to seek without outward evidence for His existence and ask only to be shown how to know Him.

Not true in all cases but in some I suppose. Nice talking to you.