How Quick we are to Judge!

[k]

Just to dispel any MYTHS about the origin of AIDS--http://www.originofaids.com/articles/early.htm

It did NOT come from gay people, but for whatever reasons, they have been wrongfully blamed for it.

 

[Dirtydeak]

.

Maybe you don't realize it, but Jesus was considered a "progressive liberal" in His earthly time; that is one of the reasons why He was crucified. Where did Jesus say we must force our hetero standards of living into the bedrooms of other people? It seems He was quite opposite. To love our neighbor is to understand they have the right to participate in whatever activies they choose to with other consenting adults.

Maybe people judge gays so harshly 'cause it is easier to place them between ourselves and the Mirror of our own Mire, than to realize we ALL have much work to do. The best way to do it is to understand we are all in this together, and our ONLY purpose is to die to self and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

First let me say two things. First there is no difference in any sin. Second, I was bisexual until 2 years after graduating high school. That having been said, being gay is wrong, and I do not judge gays, but I am sick of being made to tolerate a lifestyle I want nothing to do with. I'm sick of the minority forcing these values on me, my children, and the vast majority of the population. We recently held a vote.... a vast majority of Americans voted to re amend the constitution stating that the definition of marriage is the union between man and women. I just hope in such a tolerant wolrd you can tolerate my intolerance.

And if you believe that Christ will allow any two consenting adults to do whatever they chose, you scare me.

 

[devoted daughter]

Leviticus 15:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Why is this sin so much more important than...

Leviticus 19:27 "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

It's very easy to point a finger and be judgmental at others isn't it?

I'm not giving an opinion one way or another, other than comparing consensual sex and beards, is like comparing cheese and chalk.
One is conventional morality, the other is just grooming.


peace

DD

 

[k]

First let me say two things. First there is no difference in any sin. Second, I was bisexual until 2 years after graduating high school. That having been said, being gay is wrong, and I do not judge gays, but I am sick of being made to tolerate a lifestyle I want nothing to do with. I'm sick of the minority forcing these values on me, my children, and the vast majority of the population. We recently held a vote.... a vast majority of Americans voted to re amend the constitution stating that the definition of marriage is the union between man and women. I just hope in such a tolerant wolrd you can tolerate my intolerance.

And if you believe that Christ will allow any two consenting adults to do whatever they chose, you scare me.

Congratulations on your journey. I never said being gay is right, just expressing that, in the eyes of God, alll of us are wrong. Thanks be to Christ that we have Salvation, for that is the ONLY reason we have forgiveness. God gave us Grace, the least we can do is show some compassion for others.

How are you "being made to tolerate a lifestyle?" According to you, that part of your life is over. Bigotry is based in nothing more than lack of control. Jesus NEVER tried to CONTROL people in their personal lives; try to remember what HE said 'bout "dust off your sandals."

To make an amendment officially defining marriage between a man and a woman is to stomp all over the 1st Amendment. The "people" do not have the right to violate the rule of law. If we wish to throw out the 1st Amendment, then what makes us "Americans?" What you are talking about is Theocracy because the next step people could take is to say that "Church" is defined by a building with a Cross in it.

If you don't judge gays, why are you intolerant? That's contradictory.

I don't agree with the specific act of homosexuality, but Christ is teaching me that loving my neighbor means respecting their God Given Right of Free Will.

I used to be homophobic, thanks to Christ, He revealed my bigotry and hypocrisy.

 

[k]

I'm not giving an opinion one way or another, other than comparing consensual sex and beards, is like comparing cheese and chalk.
One is conventional morality, the other is just grooming.


peace

DD

I think the point of comparing those two is strictly satirical. Homosexuality is so focused on in our culture because we live in a patriarchy. In the eyes of many hetero men, the gay men are betraying the power structure. Ever noticed how the images of two women together are much more acceptable in our society than two men. This is also why there are the labels "gay" and "lesbian." Those are redundant 'cause if someone is "gay" then they are attracted to the same sex. Gender is irrelevant.

Try to remember that what many Christians call "conventional morality" is not universal, but the Right is trying to force it that way.

Can you (or anyone else) think of an episode in scripture where Jesus tried to force His morality onto others? (The disciples do not count) Jesus is our example, and if even God did not try to force other people's lifestyles, but just love them, then it seems that is what we should try to do.

 

[HisEagle]

The purpose for this thread is to point out the fact that so many Christians pick and choose which laws appeal to them and disregard the rest and then judge others.

I see.

So is it okay to:

• Have sex with your mother?
• Have sex with your sister?
• Have sex with your aunt?
• Have sex with an animal?

Read chapter 18 of Leviticus. You'll see the prohibitions against men lying with men is in the same chapter as the prohibitions I stated above. Aren't we "picking and choosing" which verses and laws to obey when we abstain from those perversions I've listed, yet somehow think it's okay for men to have sex with other men?

 

[Natman]

Why would you think that anyone would say that about a Christian, what I highlighted above? Did you come up with that on your own or did someone say that to you? Or is it possible that you may view yourself in that light?

I was responding to Freedon Fron Ignorance's post...

Bah, people make me sick when they sit all high and mighty shaking their heads. Everyone is selfish and horrible, and perfect holy "you" is trying to save their pitiful souls?

Son-cerely,
Nate

 

[k]

I see.

So is it okay to:

• Have sex with your mother?
• Have sex with your sister?
• Have sex with your aunt?
• Have sex with an animal?

Read chapter 18 of Leviticus. You'll see the prohibitions against men lying with men is in the same chapter as the prohibitions I stated above. Aren't we "picking and choosing" which verses and laws to obey when we abstain from those perversions I've listed, yet somehow think it's okay for men to have sex with other men?

Asking those questions are counterproductive and rude. This is not about incest or beastiality.

There is not ONE among us who follows ALL the laws of the Bible. In fact, we all break the Ten Commandments every single day. (Remember, if one is broken, then all are broken.) That is why we need the Grace of Christ through Salvation. If we could follow those laws, we wouldn't need Christ, would we?

Remember, just because some of us may be obeying God as much as possible, it doesn't mean everyone HAS to. It is not our job to be judges, or even jurors. It was through love that Christ died for us, and it is only through love others will see the Light of the Holy Spirit.

It is possible to love someone and not agree with their actions; actually, that's part of the definition of love.

 

[Natman]

It is not our job to be judges, or even jurors.

That is correct. But we are all called to be "witnesses".

It is possible to love someone and not agree with their actions; actually, that's part of the definition of love.

Agreed.

But is it "love" to allow a child to play out on a busy freeway, knowing it can mean the death of the child and the trama of whomever hit run over it, and not not something to prevent it?

Is it "love" to see someone living in unrepentant sin and say nothing, knowing that it will mean eternal agony according to God's word?

Is it "love" to know that the answer to true joy and a fulfilled life lies in a one-on-one personal relationship with Jesus Christ, our savior and creator of the universe, and keep it selfishly to yourself?

We do not like to hear that we are wrong or that we are sinners. We resent being pointed to scripture or the discipline of the godly.

The Bible says...

Prov 3:11-12
"11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father [2] the son he delights in."

Heb 12:5-6
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

Prov 13:24
"24 He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him"
​

Son-cerely in the Love of Christ,
Nate

 

[HisEagle]

Asking those questions are counterproductive and rude. This is not about incest or beastiality.

Excuse me??

Do I not have a right to join this conversation?

Those questions are NOT counterproductive, nor are they rude. I'm making a legitimate point - and if YOU weren't so rude, you would have allowed me the opportunity to explain what I mean.

There is not ONE among us who follows ALL the laws of the Bible. In fact, we all break the Ten Commandments every single day. (Remember, if one is broken, then all are broken.) That is why we need the Grace of Christ through Salvation. If we could follow those laws, we wouldn't need Christ, would we?

Remember, just because some of us may be obeying God as much as possible, it doesn't mean everyone HAS to. It is not our job to be judges, or even jurors. It was through love that Christ died for us, and it is only through love others will see the Light of the Holy Spirit.

It is possible to love someone and not agree with their actions; actually, that's part of the definition of love.

Yes, thank you for enlightening me. I'm so glad I have all the wonderful people on these boards to set me straight.

Sheesh.

Now, the point I was making is that you CAN'T state that Christians pick and choose which verses they obey without acting as a judge yourself! I'm sure the OP of this thread would agree that the Biblical mandates against sleeping with one's mother or an animal is indeed perversion. All I'm saying is that the same verse which speaks of a man lying with a man is in that SAME list. So if you say it's okay for a man to lie with a man, but it's NOT okay for a man to sleep with his mother, or have sex with an animal - then aren't YOU doing the picking and choosing as well?

Sin is sin. And yes, we all sin. But to sugar coat over one sin with the excuse that we ALL sin is nothing more than irresponsible. According to your own logic - since we don't HAVE to obey God, then what's the whole point behind the concept of repentance?

 

[k]

Now, the point I was making is that you CAN'T state that Christians pick and choose which verses they obey without acting as a judge yourself! I'm sure the OP of this thread would agree that the Biblical mandates against sleeping with one's mother or an animal is indeed perversion. All I'm saying is that the same verse which speaks of a man lying with a man is in that SAME list. So if you say it's okay for a man to lie with a man, but it's NOT okay for a man to sleep with his mother, or have sex with an animal - then aren't YOU doing the picking and choosing as well?

I never said it's okay for a man to lie with a man, but it is okay for consenting adults to choose how they live their lives. I am arguing that we don't have the right to be bedroom police. Yes, I am pointing out obvious hypocrosies, so if one wishes to call me a "judge" for that, so be it.

We cannot compare homosexual relationships to incest or beastiality, I think that's why I got upset, sorry bout that.

According to your own logic - since we don't HAVE to obey God, then what's the whole point of the concept of repentance?

We are all on/in different spectrums of understanding. You and I, and many others understand the need to repent. But, many people don't, and while we should share the message of Christ, we should not pry open their mouths and forklift down their throats. (Not saying you do this personally, just speaking in general terms.) In other words, we should tell them about God's Love with our actions, and if (1) we are Truly letting the Holy Spirit guide us, they will see that there is something really different about us and (2) the person must be in a place that will allow her/him to really seek God in their own way.

In short, our selfish desires are sinful in nature, and the gays desires are no worse than hetero's desires for lots of money.

 

[HisEagle]

I never said it's okay for a man to lie with a man, but it is okay for consenting adults to choose how they live their lives. I am arguing that we don't have the right to be bedroom police. Yes, I am pointing out obvious hypocrosies, so if one wishes to call me a "judge" for that, so be it.

We cannot compare homosexual relationships to incest or beastiality, I think that's why I got upset, sorry bout that.


We are all on/in different spectrums of understanding. You and I, and many others understand the need to repent. But, many people don't, and while we should share the message of Christ, we should not pry open their mouths and forklift down their throats. (Not saying you do this personally, just speaking in general terms.) In other words, we should tell them about God's Love with our actions, and if (1) we are Truly letting the Holy Spirit guide us, they will see that there is something really different about us and (2) the person must be in a place that will allow her/him to really seek God in their own way.

In short, our selfish desires are sinful in nature, and the gays desires are no worse than hetero's desires for lots of money.

I'm not disagreeing with that. And I'm sorry for the tone of my response.

I'm not saying that anyone is condoning homosexuality. I'm just pointing out a technicality. I realize you can't compare homosexuality to bestiality or incest. In fact, I really wasn't trying to say anything about homosexuality, per se. God knows I have no right to say anything about it, pro or con. I was just pointing out a flaw in the reasoning used to show how Christians pick and choose the "rules" they obey. I.E. you can't refer to certain Bible "sin lists" and single out homosexuality as acceptable, while still using the same Bible list to show how incest and bestiality are wrong. It doesn't work that way. Either each item on the whole list is equally sinful, or it's all irrelevant.

 

[psychedelicist]

Leviticus 19:27 "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

God wanted us to have beards, mullets and fetlocks?

 

[k]

I'm not disagreeing with that. And I'm sorry for the tone of my response.

I'm not saying that anyone is condoning homosexuality. I'm just pointing out a technicality. I realize you can't compare homosexuality to bestiality or incest. In fact, I really wasn't trying to say anything about homosexuality, per se. God knows I have no right to say anything about it, pro or con. I was just pointing out a flaw in the reasoning used to show how Christians pick and choose the "rules" they obey. I.E. you can't refer to certain Bible "sin lists" and single out homosexuality as acceptable, while still using the same Bible list to show how incest and bestiality are wrong. It doesn't work that way. Either each item on the whole list is equally sinful, or it's all irrelevant.

That is so cool, thanks, 'cause we have the problem of no voice inflection, it is hard to understand/sometimes easy to misunderstand the other person's tone.

It seems what the OP was pointing to is how Christians just focus on gays more than other things; not necessarily saying what "rules" are being followed, but more on the side of picking on people simply because they are gay.

You're right, I think sin lists are horrible, but we must first admit that on the whole, American Churches do create sin lists. How do we change this? For examle, on the Sabbath we are to rest, and give everyone else rest as well. Where is the first place many, many people go after church? To a restaurant...mmm...

My point is that that is something we never hear discussed, pew time is cherry sin picking time.

 

[k]

That is correct. But we are all called to be "witnesses".

Maybe we have different understandings of what this means. I am comfortable in thinking that enough Christians have voiced their understanding that homosexuality is wrong. The problem is, not enough gay people have also been told they are still JUST as loved as heteros. Telling a truly gay person to stop being gay is like telling a hetero "Don't committ any more sins." Some would argue that we could tell them not to participate in the acts. There may be some validity to this, but if it means the person would have to be alone for the rest of her/his life, then I disagree. One of the best ways we grow spiritually and emotionally is to have an intimate partner.

Jesus is our example, and I look and try to understand how He witnessed. I cannot find ONE place in the N.T. where he approached an ordinary person and attacked them. Believe it or not, that is how gay people feel most of the time when a Christian "witnesses."

It seems many may have it reversed. Most people witness with their lips, and then their actions do not follow; so the people they were trying to teach about Christ see no reason to believe what has been said.

However, if we witness with acceptance, patience, compassion, and sacrifice, then they will automatically ask us, "Why does there seem to be something different about you?" Then when we tell them about Christ, they will not only believe, but they will want some of that Holy Spirit stuff in their lives as well.

They must see the love of God in us before they will believe there is a loving God.

But is it "love" to allow a child to play out on a busy freeway, knowing it can mean the death of the child and the trama of whomever hit run over it, and not not something to prevent it?

Is it "love" to see someone living in unrepentant sin and say nothing, knowing that it will mean eternal agony according to God's word?

Is it "love" to know that the answer to true joy and a fulfilled life lies in a one-on-one personal relationship with Jesus Christ, our savior and creator of the universe, and keep it selfishly to yourself?

The child on the freeway analogy seems to fail on several levels. As already addressed, Gays understand what Christians think God thinks about them. Also, gay people are not "children," and this reduces their intelligence in an insulting manner.

The next two analogies follow suit.

Believe me, in this world, if one is living a Holy Spirit lead life, people will notice, and naturaly ask questions. I am not saying we should never be vocal about Christ, but let our actions do the leading. Also, we should ask others if they would like our opinions before we give it to them.

Prov 3:11-12
"11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father [2] the son he delights in."
Heb 12:5-6
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

Prov 13:24
"24 He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him"​

For the first two verse quotes: People must know God before they are able to understand God's discipline.

For the last one: "Rod" here does not mean a literal stick or something to strike a child with. The Hebrew is Shebet, and is much better translated as "seat of authority." Meaning we should teach our children about God, and discipline them in non-violent manners.


Furthermore, none of them are really applicable to this thread, unless one thinks our jobs as Christians is to go out and "discipline" gay people according to OUR will. Funny, we don't wish to express the Love of God, but we are more than willing to unleash the Wrath of God.

Twice in one post there has been an explicit allusion for comparing gays to children. But we dont judge them, right?

​

 

[devoted daughter]

I think the point of comparing those two is strictly satirical.

Indeed…LOL

Homosexuality is so focused on in our culture because we live in a patriarchy. In the eyes of many hetero men, the gay men are betraying the power structure. Ever noticed how the images of two women together are much more acceptable in our society than two men….

How true; what’s the deal with that? It’s ironic to me that the image is more acceptable of two women, and how much many men like that since they are enjoying something in which they have been eliminated from the equation!

Try to remember that what many Christians call "conventional morality" is not universal, but the Right is trying to force it that way.

Can you (or anyone else) think of an episode in scripture where Jesus tried to force His morality onto others? (The disciples do not count) Jesus is our example, and if even God did not try to force other people's lifestyles, but just love them, then it seems that is what we should try to do.

It is unfortunate that many take it upon themselves in the name of “whatever” to judge, or determine what is best for another human being spiritually, and morally, and in the case of homosexuals, between two consenting adults. It is simply none of my business.

No, I can’t think of anywhere that Jesus forces anyone to do anything. I find another irony in his use of the centurion as demonstrating that he had never seen such faith.
(Mat 8;5-13). I will leave it to anyone who has a question about this to look it up for himself, but the word servant, isn’t the word in the original Greek text. There are two words in Greek for boy/young man, the one from the original text was the other word for boy/young man that denotes a “special/different” sort of relationship, (i.e. they were lovers). I guess the original text is too unpalatable to most to be translated as such.
Apparently, not only did Christ not discriminate; he made an example of this man…”Never have I seen such faith”. Hmmm.

DD

 

[k]

Indeed…LOL


How true; what’s the deal with that? It’s ironic to me that the image is more acceptable of two women, and how much many men like that since they are enjoying something in which they have been eliminated from the equation!



It is unfortunate that many take it upon themselves in the name of “whatever” to judge, or determine what is best for another human being spiritually, and morally, and in the case of homosexuals, between two consenting adults. It is simply none of my business.

No, I can’t think of anywhere that Jesus forces anyone to do anything. I find another irony in his use of the centurion as demonstrating that he had never seen such faith.
(Mat 8;5-13). I will leave it to anyone who has a question about this to look it up for himself, but the word servant, isn’t the word in the original Greek text. There are two words in Greek for boy/young man, the one from the original text was the other word for boy/young man that denotes a “special/different” sort of relationship, (i.e. they were lovers). I guess the original text is too unpalatable to most to be translated as such.
Apparently, not only did Christ not discriminate; he made an example of this man…”Never have I seen such faith”. Hmmm.

DD

Men like to see two (or more) women together for the same principles slave owners liked to look in the fields and see all their slaves working together. Women are not nearly as free as we would like to think...because to think otherwise means there is much more work to do. Much like the institution of racism.

Women have gained some independence in our country, which is why more and more men are literally buying "wives" from foreign countries. They want the seemingly guilt-free master/slave relationship because that is what they have been taught the way the marriage is supposed to be.

That is absolutely correct about Mt. 8:5-13. Without even verifying the original greek we can see its true. First, we must think about how much a Roman Centurion would care about a "servant." They could get platonic servants easier than we can watch a "new" reality show on tv. So, why would the Centurion care so much about this particular servant? Emotional ties are always connected to the strings of truth.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Can you (or anyone else) think of an episode in scripture where Jesus tried to force His morality onto others? (The disciples do not count) Jesus is our example, and if even God did not try to force other people's lifestyles, but just love them, then it seems that is what we should try to do.

I couldn't agree more with your statemant that "Jesus us our example."

Jesus said to the aldulteress woman who was about to be stoned "go and sin no more".

Jesus wasn't forcing His morality on her. She was free to go on and live in sin. Jesus is so awesome!. Without actually accusing her, He made it clear that what she was doing was sinful.

Obedience to God law needs to be rendered out of love and reverence for Him. Not because of public opinion or public laws. Public opinion, and public laws, vary from era to the next and from one region to the next.

But Gods law is unchanging. I'm thankful we have it. Even though Gods law is higher than mans law, and I'm not living up to it, I'm still thankful for it. It's actually there for our own well being. And contrary to what many people think, Gods law was not given for the purpose of condemning anyone.

 

[CSMR]

Why isn't "thou shalt not have homosexual relations" in the group of 10 commandments? It seems that being put in this list makes a restriction more important. Though, it seems to have been less important to God to include than "thou shalt not lie". Why is homosexuality emphasized now-a-days more than lying?

Thou shalt not lie is not in the ten commandments (false witness is). Lying is mentioned elsewhere. No command is more important than another, as far as obeying God goes. If we break any command, we show ourselves to be as bad as a person who breaks all the commands. What should be emphasised is another matter. If one command is called into question, it makes sense to defend it rather a command that is not, and so emphasize it more, not that it should be deemed more essential to obey in an absolute sense.

 

[Buzz Dixon]

We cannot compare homosexual relationships to incest or beastiality, I think that's why I got upset, sorry bout that.

Bestiality, no. Consensual incest, yes.