How pro-Hamas rhetoric infected US high schools

[JosephZ]

The koran states Ishmael, The Hebrew scriptures state Isaac is the son of promise. Since this foundation is in the realm of "holy text" of history, there is nowhere else to go.

The Qur'an doesn't teach that Ishmael is the son of the promise. It follows the same linage to the promise as written the Hebrew scriptures.

God received a covenant with the Children of Israel, and We raised up from them twelve of their leaders, and God said: 'Behold, I am with you; if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend God a loan of righteousness; I will remit your sins, and admit you into Gardens beneath which rivers flow. Whosoever of you disbelieves thereafter has indeed gone astray from the right way. (Quran 5:12)

O children of Israel! Remember My favors to you; fulfil your covenant with Me and I will fulfil My covenant with you, that you should fear none but Me. Believe in My revelations, which are confirming your scriptures; do not be the first one to deny My revelations, and do not sell them for a petty price, fear Me and Me alone. Do not mix the Truth with falsehood, or knowingly conceal the truth. (Qur’an 2:40-42)

“O Children of Israel! Remember the special favor which I bestowed upon you; that I exalted you above all other nations.” (Qur’an;2:122)

We said to the Children of Israel, “Inhabit the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter arrives, We will bring you all together.” (Qur'an 17:104)

We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: “Worship none but God; and be good to parents, and relatives, and orphans, and the needy; and speak nicely to people; and pray regularly, and give alms.” (Qur'an 2:83)

When Moses said to his people, “O my people, remember God’s blessings upon you, when He placed prophets among you, and made you kings, and gave you what He never gave any other people. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned for you, and do not turn back, lest you return as losers.” (Qur'an 5:20-21)

We made the oppressed people inherit the eastern and western parts of the land, which We had blessed. Thus the fair promise of your Lord to the Children of Israel was fulfilled, because of their endurance. And We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people had built, and what they had harvested. And We delivered the Children of Israel across the sea. (Qur'an 7:137-138)

 

[ralliann]

The Qur'an doesn't teach that Ishmael is the son of the promise. It follows the same linage to the promise as written the Hebrew scriptures.

God received a covenant with the Children of Israel, and We raised up from them twelve of their leaders, and God said: 'Behold, I am with you; if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend God a loan of righteousness; I will remit your sins, and admit you into Gardens beneath which rivers flow. We raised up from them twelve of their leaders, and God said: 'Behold, I am with you; if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My messengers and support them, (Quran 5:12)

O children of Israel! Remember My favors to you; fulfil your covenant with Me and I will fulfil My covenant with you, that you should fear none but Me. Believe in My revelations, which are confirming your scriptures; do not be the first one to deny My revelations, and do not sell them for a petty price, fear Me and Me alone. Do not mix the Truth with falsehood, or knowingly conceal the truth. (Qur’an 2:40-42)

“O Children of Israel! Remember the special favor which I bestowed upon you; that I exalted you above all other nations.” (Qur’an;2:122)

We said to the Children of Israel, “Inhabit the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter arrives, We will bring you all together.” (Qur'an 17:104)

“Worship none but God; and be good to parents, and relatives, and orphans, and the needy; and speak nicely to people; and pray regularly, and give alms.” (Qur'an 2:83)


When Moses said to his people, “O my people, remember God’s blessings upon you, when He placed prophets among you, and made you kings, and gave you what He never gave any other people. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned for you, and do not turn back, lest you return as losers.” (Qur'an 5:20-21)

We made the oppressed people inherit the eastern and western parts of the land, which We had blessed. Thus the fair promise of your Lord to the Children of Israel was fulfilled, because of their endurance. And We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people had built, and what they had harvested. And We delivered the Children of Israel across the sea. (Qur'an 7:137-138)

What the Koran says about Ishmael
This summary may be found with footnotes at http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/ishmael.html
Warning: the following statements from the Koran contradict God's Word, the Bible.​

The Prophet Ishmael (Isma’il) “was a Messenger and a Prophet” [1]; he was the son of Abraham and Hagar, Abraham’s second wife. When Abraham was young he received a “dream” from God in which he was “slaughtering” Ishmael [2]. Although this was extremely difficult for Abraham to do, he proceeded anyway into the desert to sacrifice Ishmael [3]. When Abraham told his son what God planned, Ishmael offered himself willingly saying, “Father, do what thou art commanded; thou wilt find me, if Allah please, steadfast” [4]. But God made Abraham’s knife dull like wax and Abraham was unable to shed Ishmael’s blood. God saw both Abraham’s tears and his devotion and, therefore, God caused a ram to appear for Abraham to sacrifice instead of Ishmael [5].

When Ishmael grew older God called on Abraham and his son to go to Mecca and rebuild the mosque (Ka’ba) there. The original shrine, built by Adam, was displaced during the flood [6]. Upon its completion, Ishmael “settled. . . in [the] barren valley near Thy Sacred House” of Mecca with his mother; there he married [7]. Ishmael’s progeny became known as the Quraysh, the direct ancestors of Muhammad. Ishmael was the first Prophet to write and preach of the one true God – to “perform Prayer with due observance” [8] – in Arabic [9]; he is the “father of all the Arabs”[10].

Notice
The "we" in your text. And the messengers, descendants of Ishmael

1. We raised up from them twelve of their leaders, and God said: 'Behold, I am with you; if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My messengers and support them,

2. 'Behold, I am with you; 'Behold, I am with you; if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My messengers and support them,

3. Remember My favors to you; fulfil your covenant with Me and I will fulfil My covenant with you, that you should fear none but Me. Believe in My revelations,


4 We said to the Children of Israel, “Inhabit the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter arrives, We will bring you all together.”

We made a covenant with the Children of Israel:

We made the oppressed people inherit the eastern and western parts of the land, which We had blessed.

We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people had built, and what they had harvested. And We delivered the Children of Israel across the sea.

It all was based upon them being faithful the prophetic messengers descended from Ishmael.
Read concerning this in the offering of Ishmael by Abraham......
They did not obey obviously in the true revelations from the descendants of Ishmael.

 

[JosephZ]

Notice
The "we" in your text. And the messengers, descendants of Ishmael

The "we" in those verses is referring to God alone; it's what's called a "royal we".

The royal we, the Victorian we or in Latin pluralis majestatis is the way a person, usually a ruler, may use a plural personal pronoun to refer to him or herself. Kings and queens are most famous for the usage, and the royal we suggests that the king or queen is something more than a singular person. A common explanation is that a ruler speaks as an individual and a representative of his or her people.

This is why, in addition to speaking as a representative, the royal we indicates an individual is somehow more important than most other individuals. It can be called the singular of intensity.

This is how it is interpreted when the royal we occurs in the Qu’ran. Though scholars have debated the point, most conclude that when the words of Allah refer to Allah as “we” they simply mean Allah is all and loftiest, or most high. They do not suggest a plurality of Gods, something the Islamic religion avoids and protests against. In Islam there is “no God but Allah,” and Allah alone is entitled to be “we” because his stature alone is worthy of worship.

It all was based upon them being faithful the prophetic messengers descended from Ishmael.

Islam teaches that Moses, Elijah, Zechariah, John, and Jesus were among the messengers sent to the nation of Israel. Islam also teaches that Jesus is the Messiah sent to the nation of Israel to confirm the validity of the Torah and bring them the gospel. Jesus, of course, is not a descendant of Ishmael.

 

[ralliann]

The "we" in those verses is referring to God alone; it's what's called a "royal we".

The royal we, the Victorian we or in Latin pluralis majestatis is the way a person, usually a ruler, may use a plural personal pronoun to refer to him or herself. Kings and queens are most famous for the usage, and the royal we suggests that the king or queen is something more than a singular person. A common explanation is that a ruler speaks as an individual and a representative of his or her people.

This is why, in addition to speaking as a representative, the royal we indicates an individual is somehow more important than most other individuals. It can be called the singular of intensity.

This is how it is interpreted when the royal we occurs in the Qu’ran. Though scholars have debated the point, most conclude that when the words of Allah refer to Allah as “we” they simply mean Allah is all and loftiest, or most high. They do not suggest a plurality of Gods, something the Islamic religion avoids and protests against. In Islam there is “no God but Allah,” and Allah alone is entitled to be “we” because his stature alone is worthy of worship.



Islam teaches that Moses, Elijah, Zechariah, John, and Jesus were among the messengers sent to the nation of Israel. Islam also teaches that Jesus is the Messiah sent to the nation of Israel to confirm the validity of the Torah and bring them the gospel. Jesus, of course, is not a descendant of Ishmael.

Well I mentioned the connection between the sacrifice of Ishmael in connection with this "WE" which is connected to a royal we.
Have you heard of this....
a copy and paste from "Islam compass"
The partial corruption in Hebrew scripture.

Islam Compass​

Serving Islam until Almighty Allah is pleased with us permanently.​

Was Isaac or Ishmael to be Sacrificed?​

Mohamad Mostafa Nassar
TwitterNassarMohamadMR

I cannot quote the text, and I don't know why.
I copy and then paste it here and it looks good, but when I submit all that is left is quotation marks.
But the man said the Hebrew scriptures are corrupt and Isaac was named when it was really Ismael. He said all of Genesis 22 concerned Ishmael not Isaac.
Look it up. I don't know who you are listening to but, from what I am reading off of these Islamic sites aint good.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Christ was NEVER a Palestinian.

Can we agree that he was a resident of the region of Palestine? Because that's what the section of the textbook that you're objecting to actually says. I suggest you go back and re-read it, rather than working yourself into a frenzy over your own misunderstanding.

a Jew named Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea. Jesus was raised in the village of Nazareth in northern Palestine.

In other words, it states that Jesus was a Jew, born in Judea. And he grew up in Nazareth, which was within the region of Palestine. Last I checked, where someone lives has no bearing on their genealogy.

 

[ralliann]

Can we agree that he was a resident of the region of Palestine?

Why? What's the significance in the discussion?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Why? What's the significance in the discussion?

Because that is the entire context in which the idea of Jesus as a "Palestinian" was advanced.

 

[ralliann]

Because that is the entire context in which the idea of Jesus as a "Palestinian" was advanced.

Well, it has no value? Race scripturally and genealogy is not determined or used that way, anymore than modern DNA. And.....the kicker is/ salient point is Islam DOES NOT EITHER. it is a red herring for those that will think in those terms. They themselves don't and scripture does not.

 

[FireDragon76]

No, we derive a good portion of our DNA from Canaanite/Bronze Age Levantine populations...

Exactly right. Palestinians were Arabized during the Muslim invasions (adopting Arab language and customs), but they are in fact descended from the Canaanites and Israelites that inhabited the region for thousands of years.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Exactly right. Palestinians were Arabized during the Muslim invasions (adopting Arab language and customs), but they are in fact descended from the Canaanites and Israelites that inhabited the region for thousands of years.

I believe in a two state solution.. very very strongly. (I'm 100% anti Hamas, they couldn't care less about the Palestinian people)

I don't think a lot that happened surrounding the founding of Israel was fair, but I don't think what groups like hamas have done is right either..

You can't turn back the clock in the end, and now it's home to everyone and it's past time to accept it and move on in peace. For everyone's good. Generational war sucks. Anyone who wants it I do actually think is evil.

I am dismayed at all this support for Hamas lately instead of letting Israel take care of Hamas and then making real effort to go ahead with a two state solution...

It's the only way Palestinians will ever know peace. My opinion of course, but I believe it strongly enough that sometimes I want to get on a plane and see if I can't help hammer out a solution.

Someone has to say look, enough. For everyone's good.

But Hamas won't let it happen, their goals don't care about lives.. Palestinians are just cannon fodder to them.

Now they are attacking Christ and every idiot in America is repeating it...

Christ is the one who could actually bring real peace, (He makes us into 1 people in Him, dirt isn't the promise He is) so they attack Him now too.

It's beyond heartbreaking... Way beyond.

 

[FireDragon76]

I believe in a two state solution.. very very strongly. (I'm 100% anti Hamas, they couldn't care less about the Palestinian people)

I don't think a lot that happened surrounding the founding of Israel was fair, but I don't think what groups like hamas have done is right either..

You can't turn back the clock in the end, and now it's home to everyone and it's past time to accept it and move on in peace. For everyone's good. Generational war sucks. Anyone who wants it I do actually think is evil.

I am dismayed at all this support for Hamas lately instead of letting Israel take care of Hamas and then making real effort to go ahead with a two state solution...

It's the only way Palestinians will ever know peace. My opinion of course, but I believe it strongly enough that sometimes I want to get on a plane and see if I can't help hammer out a solution.

Someone has to say look, enough. For everyone's good.

But Hamas won't let it happen, their goals don't care about lives.. Palestinians are just cannon fodder to them.

Now they are attacking Christ and every idiot in America is repeating it...

Christ is the one who could actually bring real peace, so they attack Him.

Both the Israeli Knesset and Hamas are dominated by nationalism. Nationalism is a recipe for conflict and war in that region.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Both the Israeli Knesset and Hamas are dominated by nationalism. Nationalism is a recipe for conflict and war in that region.

Dirt isn't the promise - Christ is.

If we can effectively share Christ in truth, it solves everything and makes us 1.

But no one wants to hear about Christ.

 

[rjs330]

Yes. would we agree to say genealogy in this regard is based upon sons of promise/ sons of covenant inheritance etc.?

Yes. If Israel had not inherited the land the same would be true as well.

I agree. I find it even more disturbing that Christians would support this today, given their own scripture.
The gospels mention this in many ways. We do not need to even rely on the old testament to speak to this.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


Agreed. Remember the story of the vinyard of God. What happened in the end? He finally sends his son, the heir of that vinyard.

I think it's easiest to say that the Palestinians are not Jews. Jews are not Palestinians. They may be from the same areas or regions but my understanding is the Palestinians are Arabic and the Israelis are Jews. If you were to call Arabs a Jew they would be very upset and have a few words with you. I think the Jews would be upset if you called them Arabs. And all our talk and reasoned approach wouldn't mean a thing. The important thing is. THEY are a difference and it is a matter of GREAT significance to all of them.

 

[rjs330]

Well I mentioned the connection between the sacrifice of Ishmael in connection with this "WE" which is connected to a royal we.
Have you heard of this....
a copy and paste from "Islam compass"
The partial corruption in Hebrew scripture.

Islam Compass​

Serving Islam until Almighty Allah is pleased with us permanently.​

Was Isaac or Ishmael to be Sacrificed?​

Mohamad Mostafa Nassar
TwitterNassarMohamadMR

I cannot quote the text, and I don't know why.
I copy and then paste it here and it looks good, but when I submit all that is left is quotation marks.
But the man said the Hebrew scriptures are corrupt and Isaac was named when it was really Ismael. He said all of Genesis 22 concerned Ishmael not Isaac.
Look it up. I don't know who you are listening to but, from what I am reading off of these Islamic sites aint good.

I guess the Koran is right and the Bible is wrong? Or they both teach the same things?

Yes we have to be very careful with what we read on the Internet. I've heard similar things from Muslims who make it sound so reasonable and that they are just saying what the Bible says. But the truth is it's a false religion and though the Koran says similar things to the Bible, the meaning is FAR different as is the belief system. The enemy convinces people in various ways and sometimes it's through sounding just like the Bible.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I think it's easiest to say that the Palestinians are not Jews. Jews are not Palestinians. They may be from the same areas or regions but my understanding is the Palestinians are Arabic and the Israelis are Jews. If you were to call Arabs a Jew they would be very upset and have a few words with you. I think the Jews would be upset if you called them Arabs. And all our talk and reasoned approach wouldn't mean a thing. The important thing is. THEY are a difference and it is a matter of GREAT significance to all of them.

"Palestinian" - like "American" - isn't an ethnicity. Palestine is a region - in Jesus's time, considered to be what is now Israel, Lebanon, and parts of Syria and Jordan. At the time of Jesus's birth, the entire region of Palestine was under the rule of Herod (who had previously been king of Judaea, the southernmost part of Palestine), as a client king of the Roman Empire. Following Herod's death, Palestine was split between his children, but the region was still collectively known as Palestine. In other words, there is nothing historically inaccurate about saying that Jesus was born and raised in Palestine.

 

[MForbes]

They may be from the same areas or regions but my understanding is the Palestinians are Arabic and the Israelis are Jews.

Many Arab citizens in Israel define themselves as "Israeli". Being an Israeli doesn't mean you are a Jew........it means you're a citizen of the nation state of Israel.

The Status of Arabs in Israel

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[ralliann]

I think it's easiest to say that the Palestinians are not Jews. Jews are not Palestinians. They may be from the same areas or regions but my understanding is the Palestinians are Arabic and the Israelis are Jews.

This is easiest.

If you were to call Arabs a Jew they would be very upset and have a few words with you. I think the Jews would be upset if you called them Arabs. And all our talk and reasoned approach wouldn't mean a thing. The important thing is. THEY are a difference and it is a matter of GREAT significance to all of them.

And this is true. These discussions happen because of what they say about themselves, and others agree.

 

[rjs330]

Many Arab citizens in Israel define themselves as "Israeli". Being an Israeli doesn't mean you are a Jew........it means you're a citizen of the nation state of Israel.

The Status of Arabs in Israel

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

As I said. Arabs are not Jews.

 

[MForbes]

As I said. Arabs are not Jews.

OK, but you also said:

"They may be from the same areas or regions but my understanding is the Palestinians are Arabic and the Israelis are Jews."

My post and link was to indicate that this is not completely accurate. True, Palestinians are Arabs, but there are Arabs who are also Israelis (not just the Jews).

 

[ralliann]

OK, but you also said:

"They may be from the same areas or regions but my understanding is the Palestinians are Arabic and the Israelis are Jews."

My post and link was to indicate that this is not completely accurate. True, Palestinians are Arabs, but there are Arabs who are also Israelis (not just the Jews).

What importance does Arabs also being Israelis have?