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Yes, of course. But trusting in Christ to save you, to be your Saviour, is no more a work than trusting in a surgeon to fix your heart-valve malfunction is a work. You trust, but the surgeon does all the work. Likewise, we trust in Christ but he does all the saving work.
Yes, right.
Nope. You are doing more than expressing faith, trust, in Christ when you are baptized, believing it contributes to your salvation. Now Christ alone is not your Saviour but Christ plus you getting baptized. Christ plus anything in order to be saved is not the Gospel.
I already addressed this verse and explained with Scripture that it in no way requires that one understand Ananias to be speaking of physical water baptism.
Yes!! This is exactly what you are doing - whatever denials you might offer.
Yes, it is. Which is why works play no part in one's salvation. Christ doesn't need your works to save you. Nothing you can do will ever make his atoning work at Calvary any more perfect, any more complete, than it already is. What Christ did on the cross needs no contribution of good works from us.
Yes, you should do such things for your neighbor but they are the natural result of being indwelt by God's Spirit and of loving those God loves, not the means of maintaining one's salvation.
No, the shed blood of Christ does that.
Matthew 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
1 John 1:7
7 ...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Revelation 1:5
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
No, it doesn't. Your excerpt from 1 Peter 3:21 is out context and does not make the case for you that you think it does.
As I've explained, you're not considering them carefully in coming to your conclusions.
And in many places in Scripture that describe how to be saved, baptism is not mentioned at all. An odd thing, if it is essential to salvation. We always read of faith, or belief in Christ in those passages that speak of how to be saved, but baptism in only a few. And then there's Paul remark:
1 Corinthians 1:17
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel...
How is it possible to preach the Gospel which is, of course, for the purpose of saving souls, and yet neglect baptism if, as you say, it is vital to salvation? Paul seems to be making a distinction between the Gospel and baptism, separating them rather than uniting them, as you seem to think is necessary.
The whole counsel of Scripture. In particular those verses that rule out works as part of salvation.
You left out the part that excludes works as part of how one is saved. Convenient. Here's how the verse finishes: "...not of works, lest any man should boast."
Doing what God says results in works; you can't obey God and not end up doing good works. So separating obeying God and works as though they aren't inter-related is specious at best. You are essentially setting Scripture against itself and deflecting doing so by a facile "I'm not in a position to question the Almighty." No, you aren't in a position to question the Almighty. But you are in a position to better understand and handle His word than you are doing.
Yes, baptism is a work. You have to enact baptism, to do it - unlike simply receiving salvation by faith as Scripture says saves a person.
Ananias doesn't say which baptism he means. But other Scripture that I offered to you help us to understand that water baptism is just a symbol, a figure, of the spiritual baptism by the Spirit by which a person is actually saved.
Absolutely wrong. Spiritual regeneration happens as a consequence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, not by water baptism. I already gave you some verses that make this clear. Here are some more:
Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Paul says not a single word in the entire eighth chapter about baptism having anything at all to do with spiritual regeneration. But he goes on at length about how the Spirit quickens, or makes alive spiritually, all those who are saved. Along with the verses I already gave you about the Spirit "baptizing" people into Christ, what Paul writes above makes it very clear that water baptism is merely a symbolic ritual, illustrating what the Holy Spirit has done in giving a second spiritual birth to a person. For more on this see also Romans 6.
I am not questioning God, I am questioning your understanding of His word which I've shown is faulty.
Nope. You are doing more than expressing faith, trust, in Christ when you are baptized, believing it contributes to your salvation. Now Christ alone is not your Saviour but Christ plus you getting baptized. Christ plus anything in order to be saved is not the Gospel.
From the mouth of the Savior, the author of etermal life: And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:15-16
It means what it says, sorry you are unable to accept it
Hi. I agree with most of your post, although I believe that "Just a Christian" actually believes the same although both of you are articulating differently in writing.
To follow Christ's command to be baptized is not a work; rather, by submitting to Christ's command to be baptized, we are outwardly showing that our faith is in Christ - that we now live for Him, which includes following His commands - one of which is to be baptized.
A person who says they believe in Jesus; yet, they refuse to obey His command, shows His faith in not genuine, that he has not truly submitted his life to Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
Jesus was baptized, so not only did Jesus command it, but He set an example that His disciples are to follow. And we see in the Book of Acts, that being baptized was a command of Jesus that the Apostles certainly practiced and followed for all new converts.
I agree with you though that baptism itself does not wash our sins away, but rather the public confession of our faith before God and others, which baptism represents.
The Apostle James is correct, and is exactly what I see "Just a Christian" keep repeating. Yet, it is not works that save you, but rather the faith in Christ by which we submit our lives to Christ. The works of such faith, shows are faith is genuine, because we are following Christ.
Do you believe the Book of James to be inspired Scripture?
If you refuse to obey Christ, then is your faith genuine?
Therefore, if faith is not demonstrated by works (following Christ's commands), if your faith is dead, are you saved?
Is not baptism important simply because Lord Jesus commanded it?
If you claim to be in Christ, yet refuse to obey His command, are you really saved at all?
According to God's word:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16
I don't have a problem with the idea that works demonstrate our faith.
From reading all his posts, I am thinking JustaChristian is saying that, since obedience is an integral aspect of faith, that obedience (the works Christ commands of His followers) is integral to salvation.
Attempting to achieve salvation through works cannot save. However, "Baptism" is not merely good works, but rather a direct command of Christ to His followers. Do you see the difference?
A direct command of Lord Jesus is essential to follow if one is really saved.
I disagree. Is that the kind of logic you would tell your boss when he orders you to do a job, or is following the order essential to keep your job? : ) ... Likewise, Baptism is certainly important because Lord Jesus commanded it. And if Lord Jesus commanded Baptism, then such command is essential for those who claim to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Are you saying you can pick and choose which commands of Jesus you want to follow? Or are you saying that you must obey any and all commands of Christ as a faithful Christian?
Seems to me that if one is going to endeavor to be a Christian, one would be concerned with God's word more so than anything else!!! 1. No where does the NT say or imply that anyone has ever been saved by praying "the sinners prayer".
2. The Bible does however say specifically that obedience IS involved in salvation.
Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. - John 9:31
Can a sinner pray him/her self to heaven?
Not according to God's word.
In today's world where churches and different beliefs are popping up on every corner, not to mention the years of churches preaching a watered down Bible and God. What does the Bible say and not say concerning salvation?
Is that from the Bible, if so plesse provide proof text.- BUT, if they say the sinners prayer (or anything similar) while really meaning the words and dedicated themselves to Christ, then they are saved and one of the family.
Once again is this from the Bible, if so please provide proof text...concerning deathbed confession tooYes, a sinner can pray him/her self to heaven and salvation. Otherwise how could some repent and be saved on their deathbeds after a life of regret?
Yes, I realize most of the epistles are written to those who are in Christ. If those saved are in Christ, does the Bible tell us how to get into Christ? Proof text??And remember that those alive in Christ are dead to sin already, so they would not be termed as sinners in this way.
I do not agrree that it is a "natural result" of believing in God/Christ.but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. "Does his will" is a natural result of faith after becoming a Christian and growing as one. There is not a strict, legalistic timeline for this. You can be saved minutes before death, so clearly those in question wouldn't have racked up years of obedience in those five minutes. Does this make them less saved?
Is that from the Bible, if so plesse provide proof text.
I'm not trying to be rude, I tell you the truth, but that is in no way consistent with the teaching of my KJV, NKJV or NET Bibles. The sinners prayer is only consistent with the watered down salvations taught by numerous churches / preachers today.Accepting Christ into your heart to become a believer is completely biblical. My point with my post was that it is not the sinner's prayer words that saves, but if a person really means it when they say they believe and are coming to God. I didn't say the sinner's prayer either, it's not required, faith is what is required. It's the intent in the heart of the person.
In today's world where churches and different beliefs are popping up on every corner, not to mention the years of churches preaching a watered down Bible and God. What does the Bible say and not say concerning salvation? Seems to me that if one is going to endeavor to be a Christian, one would be concerned with God's word more so than anything else!!! 1. No where does the NT say or imply that anyone has ever been saved by praying "the sinners prayer".
2. The Bible does however say specifically that obedience IS involved in salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. -
The Bible says what the Bible says, regardless of what anyone believes. Sure, there are prophetic areas of the Bible where I may be right in the interpretation or you may be or we both may be wrong, but I submit to you that anything pertaining to salvation is straight forward requiring zero interpretation. Would God want us to be saved and not tell us how to be saved? Would God be a just God by requiring this for salvation from one person and something different from another thus making it impossible to know? Not according to the Word of God. For those who will argue the "sinner prayer" i have but one more verse for ponderance.
Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. - John 9:31
Can a sinner pray him/her self to heaven?
Not according to God's word.
In Him
In today's world where churches and different beliefs are popping up on every corner, not to mention the years of churches preaching a watered down Bible and God. What does the Bible say and not say concerning salvation? Seems to me that if one is going to endeavor to be a Christian, one would be concerned with God's word more so than anything else!!! 1. No where does the NT say or imply that anyone has ever been saved by praying "the sinners prayer".
2. The Bible does however say specifically that obedience IS involved in salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. -
The Bible says what the Bible says, regardless of what anyone believes. Sure, there are prophetic areas of the Bible where I may be right in the interpretation or you may be or we both may be wrong, but I submit to you that anything pertaining to salvation is straight forward requiring zero interpretation. Would God want us to be saved and not tell us how to be saved? Would God be a just God by requiring this for salvation from one person and something different from another thus making it impossible to know? Not according to the Word of God. For those who will argue the "sinner prayer" i have but one more verse for ponderance.
Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. - John 9:31
Can a sinner pray him/her self to heaven?
Not according to God's word.
In Him
The churches of Christ would tell you to hear the word, believe it, repent of your sins, confess Jesus to be the son of God and be baptized in water (immersed) and they would be correct.
Some would say it is by grace, not of yourself but the gift of God and not by works (our own effort) and they would be right.
Salvation is the destination for the completed life. I have fought the good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith and because of that I will receive the crown of life. Salvation is "worked out" personally. But in the end it is by grace because we don't deserve it....no not one!
If you don't work you can't be saved. But your works will not save you. Riddle me that.
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