How one is saved.....

[Just_a_Christian]

Whether in the OT or the NT, the requirement is the same; i.e. belief and obedience. The means of deliverance/salvation changed as animal sacrifice was succeeded by Jesus' ultimate sacrifice but the requirements remain unchanged.

I agree totally brother

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you know that the church Jesus died for, fell into apostasy, and became the catholic church when the Roman Empire made Christianity the official religion??

The apostolic Church of God adopted the name Catholic some time between 107AD and 180AD. In St Ignatius’ epistle to the Smyrnaeans written in 107AD he mentions the church by name as the Church of God but later describes the church as being Catholic in nature. So at this point we can see Catholic was not the official name of the church but the idea of the church being Catholic (meaning universal) in nature was already established. In St Iranaeus’ writing in defense to the Gnostic uprising titled Adversus Haereses written in 180AD he mentions the church by name as the Catholic Church. This was 200 years before Theodosius declared the Catholic Church as the official church of the Roman Empire in 380AD.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does Scripture forbid the praying of a prayer of salvation? No. What is prayer, essentially, but talking to God? And to whom would it be more important to confess with one's mouth the Lord Jesus Christ than to God? Is there some particular prayer, some special set of words said in the correct order that saves a person? No. But certainly communicating one's trust in Christ as Saviour to God is a perfectly natural thing to do - not to inform God, of course, but to make conscious and concrete one's coming to faith in Jesus.



And how does one obey the Gospel? Not by doing works. Such an idea is strictly, and explicitly, and repeatedly denied by Scripture:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by good works but unto good works.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,



You don't appear to believe this since you're twisting Scripture in order to promote a works-salvation doctrine.



Uh huh. Says the guy promoting works-salvation.



It is not the act of prayer that is important but its contents, what it expresses (Romans 10:9-10). And you should consider the source of John 9:31. It wasn't John speaking, or Jesus, but a Jew whom Jesus had healed of blindness. The healed man was not speaking with the authority of Christ, nor of an apostle, but was offering a layman's understanding of things (possibly Isaiah 59:2). The man certainly had no understanding of the New Covenant yet to be established in and through Christ and what it meant to be born-again. I would not, then, use this fellow's remark as ground for Christian doctrine pertaining to salvation.

We are justified by faith but we must abide and produce fruit to receive salvation. John 15:1-8

 

[Just_a_Christian]

The apostolic Church of God adopted the name Catholic some time between 107AD and 180AD. In St Ignatius’ epistle to the Smyrnaeans written in 107AD he mentions the church by name as the Church of God but later describes the church as being Catholic in nature. So at this point we can see Catholic was not the official name of the church but the idea of the church being Catholic (meaning universal) in nature was already established. In St Iranaeus’ writing in defense to the Gnostic uprising titled Adversus Haereses written in 180AD he mentions the church by name as the Catholic Church. This was 200 years before Theodosius declared the Catholic Church as the official church of the Roman Empire in 380AD.

I agree sir, the new testament foretold of the falling away or apostasy. From the time of around 200 AD the church slowly morphed into the Roman Catholic church and about 390 AD the Roman Catholic church instituted the "apostolic creed". I'm not saying the church Christ established was completely gone but rather since the falling away and through dark ages there were at least a remnant of true believers. I believe if it were completely gone the gates of hell would have prevailed, at least for a time period. Having said that, I don't believe what you or I think concerning this has any effect on our salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree sir, the new testament foretold of the falling away or apostasy. From the time of around 200 AD the church slowly morphed into the Roman Catholic church and about 390 AD the Roman Catholic church instituted the "apostolic creed". I'm not saying the church Christ established was completely gone but rather since the falling away and through dark ages there were at least a remnant of true believers. I believe if it were completely gone the gates of hell would have prevailed, at least for a time period. Having said that, I don't believe what you or I think concerning this has any effect on our salvation.

I’m not aware of anything unbiblical in the Nicene creed. Is far as I’m concerned the Roman Church remained apostolic up until the addition of the filioque. If I’m not mistaken around 700AD. After that it was a slow downhill decent from there ending up with their schism or excommunication from the Catholic Church in 1054AD.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

I’m not aware of anything unbiblical in the Nicene creed. Is far as I’m concerned the Roman Church remained apostolic up until the addition of the filioque. If I’m not mistaken around 700AD. After that it was a slow downhill decent from there ending up with their schism or excommunication from the Catholic Church in 1054AD.

Is the creed created by man or God? The very moment man steps in adding to that which us perfect, is according to God sin
Initiating the downward spiral.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is the creed created by man or God? The very moment man steps in adding to that which us perfect, is according to God sin
Initiating the downward spiral.

That all depends on how you look at it. If it is biblical it is from God. Many people confuse Roman beliefs with Catholic beliefs. There are differences depending on which belief your referring to.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

That all depends on how you look at it. If it is biblical it is from God. Many people confuse Roman beliefs with Catholic beliefs. There are differences depending on which belief your referring to.

Was God completely pleased with everything within the creed, who knows but God? Will creeds change? Most definately, man is not capable of producing anything that improves or adds "insight" into that which God has produced. How would've God reacted, if when Moses came down with the ten commandments, the children of Israel started adding to it or trying to improving it. What purpose can a creed serve other than man, unfortunately we as humans are prone to messing up what God prevides for us..

 

[aiki]

Call what I believe works based if you wish, ut doesn't make it so.

Merely calling your perspective works-based does not make it so, no, but you have said that obedience is necessary to being saved and then you've suggested this means to do good works. Sounds like works-based salvation to me.

When we're told to do something, in the New Testament, it is called obeying.

No, when we are told to do something in Scripture it is called a command. When we follow that command, we are obeying it.

Good works are giving the hungry person food instead of rocks or a coat tutu o someone who is cold.

See? This is works-salvation. Which the Bible denies. Good works come out of our salvation, they are not the means to it.

I am not twisting anything, God's word says what it says, one accepts it or rejects it.

Yes, you are twisting Scripture - or, actually, simply ignoring it. What about those verses I gave you that say very explicitly that salvation is not according to, or by, our works? You simply cannot claim to hold to a biblical view of salvation and then suggest that works are vital to one's salvation when the Bible denies this is the case.

If you think I'm twisting scripture the prudent thing to do is inquire instead of judging me and hurling accusations!

Hurling accusations? I'm simply pointing out that what you've said is in error. I've given you scriptural support for my criticism of your comments. Why should I agree with you when I think you've got it wrong? How is disagreeing with you "hurling accusations"?

Does the Bible say whosoever believes and is baptized shall be saved? Does the Bible say, arise and be baptised and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord?

Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

I guess you didn't notice the ending of this verse. Does it say "he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned"? No, it doesn't. Why is that? If baptism is integral to salvation, then surely its absence should have been included with unbelief as the cause of condemnation. But it isn't. It is only a lack of belief that places one under condemnation, not the neglect of baptism. It seems evident to me, therefore, that belief is the crucial thing, not baptism, to one's salvation, just as we read again and again in Scripture. This understanding of Mark 16:16 avoids directly contradicting Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5, all of which flatly deny any works (which baptism would be) as being necessary to salvation.

Acts 22:16
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

What baptism is Ananias talking about here? Physical or spiritual? Titus 3:5 gives us the answer:

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Acts 1:5
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:For there is no respect of persons with God. - Romans 2:7-11

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; -
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? - 1 Peter 4:16-17

So, reconcile these passages with the ones I presented to you that explicitly deny works as necessary to salvation. Show me how you honor the clear statements of Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 and hold to a works-based salvation at the same time.

You seem to have misunderstood that although good works, obedience to God's commands, are an inevitable consequence of genuine salvation, they are not salvific in-and-of themselves. To analogize: You are thinking the apple tree must bear apples in order to be an apple tree. But although a healthy, well-nourished apple tree will always bear apples it does so only because it is already an apple tree. An apple tree is an apple tree even when it is not bearing apples. So, too, the Christian person. It is because he is already saved that he bears fruit unto righteousness. He must have the life of Christ already in him in order to manifest that life in his behaviour. The link between being born-again and good works is direct and strong - so much so that people sometimes conflate the two. But Scripture is clear that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to God's mercy He saved us.

 

[aiki]

We are justified by faith but we must abide and produce fruit to receive salvation. John 15:1-8

This is works-salvation which the Bible explicitly denies: Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Was God completely pleased with everything within the creed, who knows but God? Will creeds change? Most definately, man is not capable of producing anything that improves or adds "insight" into that which God has produced. How would've God reacted, if when Moses came down with the ten commandments, the children of Israel started adding to it or trying to improving it. What purpose can a creed serve other than man, unfortunately we as humans are prone to messing up what God prevides for us..

Can you please give specific examples of what you disagree with about the Nicene Creed? What exactly is added in the Nicene Creed that is not taught in scriptures?

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Merely calling your perspective works-based does not make it so, no, but you have said that obedience is necessary to being saved and then you've suggested this means to do good works. Sounds like works-based salvation to me.



No, when we are told to something in Scripture it is called a command. When we follow that command, we are obeying it.



See? This is works-salvation. Which the Bible denies. Good works come out of our salvation, they are not the means to it.




Yes, you are twisting Scripture - or, actually, simply ignoring it. What about those verses I gave you that say very explicitly that salvation is not according to, or by, our works? You simply cannot claim to hold to a biblical view of salvation and then suggest that works are vital to one's salvation when the Bible denies this is the case.



Hurling accusations? I'm simply pointing out that what you've said is in error. I've given you scriptural support for my criticism of your comments. Why should I agree with you when I think you've got it wrong? How is disagreeing with you "hurling accusations"?



Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

I guess you didn't notice the ending of this verse. Does it say "he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned"? No, it doesn't. Why is that? If baptism is integral to salvation, then surely its absence should have been included with unbelief as the cause of condemnation. But it isn't. It is only a lack of belief that places one under condemnation, not the neglect of baptism. It seems evident to me, therefore, that belief is the crucial thing, not baptism, to one's salvation just as we read again and again in Scripture. This understanding of Mark 16:16 avoids directly contradicting Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5, all of which flatly deny any works (which baptism would be) as being necessary to salvation.

Acts 22:16
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

What baptism is Ananias talking about here? Physical or spiritual? Titus 3:5 gives us the answer:

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Acts 1:5
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."



So, reconcile these passages with the ones I presented to you that explicitly deny works as necessary to salvation. Show me how you honor the clear statements of Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 and hold to a works-based salvation at the same time.

You seem to have misunderstood that although good works, obedience to God's commands, are an inevitable consequence of genuine salvation, they are not salvific in-and-of themselves. To analogize: You are thinking the apple tree must bear apples in order to be an apple tree. But although a healthy, well-nourished apple tree will always bear apples it does so only because it is already an apple tree. An apple tree is an apple tree even when it is not bearing apples. So, too, the Christian person. It is because he is already saved that he bears fruit unto righteousness. He must have the life of Christ already in him in order to manifest that life in his behaviour. The link between being born-again and good works is direct and strong - so much so that people sometimes conflate the two. But Scripture is clear that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to God's mercy He saved us.

Is there a diffetece between obeying when you are told to do something,and working eight hours during the day for money. If there isn't just send me
some or all of the next money you earn.
Why didnt He say those who don't believe and don't get baptized. 1st. Someone who doesnt believe certainly will not be baptised into that which he does not believe. Why didn't He say those who believe but aren't baptised will be damned? My best guess is He planned on teaching that faith only cannot save...see the demons who believe and tremble. To know for sure, you can question Him, I will not.
According to your reasoning only saved people do good wotks. I think not.
Again, I agree works cannot save...obeying God can. Ask Nadad and Abihu.
I'm short on time which is why im being short with you. If tut his doesnt clear it up let me know.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Obedience is the result of salvation, not the means of it.

I agree with this statement. A person who is saved is motivated by the Holy Spirit to good works. But we are not saved by our works.

Galatians addresses the issue.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.


The crux of the issue is summed up in the latter part of Galatians:

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

We as Christians are called to freedom, i.e. not saved by works, by by the finished work of the cross, but yet we are not to use that fact as an occasion for the flesh, but through love to serve one another.

Yet there is a principal in the word of God. And it is this:

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Sin hardens us, it blinds us to the truth. If we persists in willful and rebellious sins, we can stop believing the truth.

2Th 2:11-12 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

These verses should be a warning to us, that although we are 100% saved by God's sacrifice not our own works. If we are rebellious we may well lose our salvation.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Can you please give specific examples of what you disagree with about the Nicene Creed? What exactly is added in the Nicene Creed that is not taught in scriptures?

Sorry I had to pick up the daughter and take her to gymnastics.
1st and foremost creeds are man made not Divine and are subject to error and can change if man decides to do so. Having said that, I do not see anything in the Nicene Creed that is in left field, if you will. Why not just say we believe the Bible? Does God approve of creeds, I honestly do not know. Does He approve some and not others?? Beyond what is written in the creed(s) is that left up to the individual? Does it cause any confusion? I will agree that I see negligible difference in written creeds and online "mission statements". If i were to adopt, say the Nicene Creed, I'd rather it say that I or we believe in the one church that was established on the day pentecost or the bride of Christ something to that effect.
Your thoughts?

 

[aiki]

Is there a diffetece between obeying when you are told to do something,and working eight hours during the day for money. If there isn't just send me
some or all of the next money you earn.

??? Not following you here...

Why didnt He say those who don't believe and don't get baptized. 1st. Someone who doesnt believe certainly will not be baptised into that which he does not believe.

Obviously. This doesn't address my question, though.

Why didn't He say those who believe but aren't baptised will be damned? My best guess is He planned on teaching that faith only cannot save...see the demons who believe and tremble. To know for sure, you can question Him, I will not.

Your guesses are just that: guesses. As such, they have no value in explaining why Jesus left out the neglect of baptism as a cause for condemnation. Essentially, you have no explanation. But this is par for the course so far. You have ignored most of the content of my posts and the points I've made. Do you think if you simply ignore them, they'll go away? In particular, you have offered not the slightest comment on the three verses/passages I've cited that flatly deny works-salvation. Why is that?

According to your reasoning only saved people do good wotks. I think not.

??? Please show where this is either stated or implied in what I wrote. I'm very interested to see how you'll support your remark here from what I've written.

Again, I agree works cannot save...obeying God can.

This is akin to saying, "Washing your dishes doesn't get them clean but scrubbing them in hot soapy water can." Your statement here is tautological.

I'm short on time which is why im being short with you. If tut his doesnt clear it up let me know.

"Clear it up"? No. I'm afraid clarity is not yet evident in what you've written.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is works-salvation which the Bible explicitly denies: Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5.

I never said we are justified by works. But Jesus did in fact say

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sorry I had to pick up the daughter and take her to gymnastics.
1st and foremost creeds are man made not Divine and are subject to error and can change if man decides to do so. Having said that, I do not see anything in the Nicene Creed that is in left field, if you will. Why not just say we believe the Bible? Does God approve of creeds, I honestly do not know. Does He approve some and not others?? Beyond what is written in the creed(s) is that left up to the individual? Does it cause any confusion? I will agree that I see negligible difference in written creeds and online "mission statements". If i were to adopt, say the Nicene Creed, I'd rather it say that I or we believe in the one church that was established on the day pentecost or the bride of Christ something to that effect.
Your thoughts?

Yes that would’ve been a great addition I agree. Many people are deceived by the Roman Church’s claim to be the one true apostolic church but history shows otherwise. Both Britannica and Wikipedia confirm that the pentarchy were the head church council leaders. These were 5 bishops who each governed the churches in their jurisdiction who would meet together at councils to decide church matters and doctrines. They were the bishop of Antioch, Jerusalem, Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria. The short version of the story, the Roman bishop demanded all the churches must submit to his authority and all the Eastern churches basically said your crazy and the end result was Rome was excommunicated from the Catholic Church. This was after much argument back & forth of course. Rome claims to have excommunicated the Eastern churches but that doesn’t make any sense. Very shortly after Rome’s excommunication the Eastern churches adopted the name Orthodox Catholic Church meaning Traditional Catholic Church. The bishops of Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople, and Alexandria all sided against Rome and adopted the name Orthodox. So you have 4 council leaders who say they excommunicated Rome and the bishop of Rome saying he excommunicated everyone else. Lol that’s not exactly how a council works bro. And that’s basically the short version of the Roman Church’s schism from the original apostolic Catholic Church.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Merely calling your perspective works-based does not make it so, no, but you have said that obedience is necessary to being saved and then you've suggested this means to do good works. Sounds like works-based salvation to me.

As I said before, if I'm told by God that in order to have my past sins forgiven or washed away and I believe Him, I will by all means do just that. I would be no more "earning" my forgiveness than I would be "earning" your next paycheck if you gave it to me. As a matter of fact, in baptism I'm not doing anything I'm merely submitting myself to be baptised.

No, when we are told to do something in Scripture it is called a command. When we follow that command, we are obeying it.

....and I am told to be baptized for the remission of sins. Arise, be baptised and wash away thy sins.

See? This is works-salvation. Which the Bible denies. Good works come out of our salvation, they are not the means to it.

I'm earning my salvation for doing what God instructs me to do? No!! That's like saying I deserve a trophy for obeying the speed limit or paying my taxes. The good works that's causing the issue is the works like mowing the elderly widow's yard. Or, fixing the elderly's air conditioner that's broken and it's 100 deg outside and they can't afford to have it fixed. I should as a Christian do those because those are fruits of a Christian. Show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works.

Yes, you are twisting Scripture - or, actually, simply ignoring it. What about those verses I gave you that say very explicitly that salvation is not according to, or by, our works? You simply cannot claim to hold to a biblical view of salvation and then suggest that works are vital to one's salvation when the Bible denies this is the case.

Hurling accusations? I'm simply pointing out that what you've said is in error. I've given you scriptural support for my criticism of your comments. Why should I agree with you when I think you've got it wrong? How is disagreeing with you "hurling accusations"?

Yes, you are acusing me of twisting or ignoring scripture. I have done no such thing. Baptism washes away ones sins. Baptism doth also now save us. I twist nothing that is precisely what the verses say.
Jesus says if I believe and am baptized i can be saved. I'm told that with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Jesus says if I will confess Him before men He will then confess me before the Father.
What exactly am I twisting or ignoring.

Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

I guess you didn't notice the ending of this verse. Does it say "he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned"? No, it doesn't. Why is that? If baptism is integral to salvation, then surely its absence should have been included with unbelief as the cause of condemnation. But it isn't. It is only a lack of belief that places one under condemnation, not the neglect of baptism. It seems evident to me, therefore, that belief is the crucial thing, not baptism, to one's salvation, just as we read again and again in Scripture. This understanding of Mark 16:16 avoids directly contradicting Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5, all of which flatly deny any works (which baptism would be) as being necessary to salvation.

Certainly, any rational person will agree that if one does not believe in Christ he would not be baptized into that which he doesn't believe.
Ephesians 2:7-8
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Salvation is offered to everyone, everyone in the world that has lived since Christ. It is free by grace, to all who wii accept it.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, -
Once again, works and doing what God says are two different things. If this were the only verse adressing salvation and had God not said that through baptism our sins are forgiven, we would be on the same page. But He did and I'm not in the position to question the Almighty.
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, - Titus 3:5
Baptism is not a work of righteousness, it is simply something we are told to do. When we submit to God's will to be baptized our sins are washed away.

Acts 22:16
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

What baptism is Ananias talking about here? Physical or spiritual? Titus 3:5 gives us the answer:

Physical in the sense that we submit ourselves to be baptized, spiritual sense sins are not filth or dirt that may be washed off in baptism.

Acts 1:5
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Holy Spirit baptism was a means of confirmation, in addition to having ones sins forgiven through baptism the one being baptised did miraculous acts. This type of baptism also occurred when the gospel was first preached unto the gentiles.

You seem to have misunderstood that although good works, obedience to God's commands, are an inevitable consequence of genuine salvation, they are not salvific in-and-of themselves.

No, I understand that being told to be baptized for the remission of my sins is different from "good works". Who has the right to say what God can and can not do?
Just as Naaman thought it was foolish to dip 7 times in a dirty body of water to cure himself of leprosy, that is exactly what God requied him to do, and yet Naaman did not earn his healing.

 

[aiki]

As I said before, if I'm told by God that in order to have my past sins forgiven or washed away and I believe Him, I will by all means do just that.

Yes, of course. But trusting in Christ to save you, to be your Saviour, is no more a work than trusting in a surgeon to fix your heart-valve malfunction is a work. You trust, but the surgeon does all the work. Likewise, we trust in Christ but he does all the saving work.

I would be no more "earning" my forgiveness than I would be "earning" your next paycheck if you gave it to me.

Yes, right.

As a matter of fact, in baptism I'm not doing anything I'm merely submitting myself to be baptised.

Nope. You are doing more than expressing faith, trust, in Christ when you are baptized, believing it contributes to your salvation. Now Christ alone is not your Saviour but Christ plus you getting baptized. Christ plus anything in order to be saved is not the Gospel.

....and I am told to be baptized for the remission of sins. Arise, be baptised and wash away thy sins.

I already addressed this verse and explained with Scripture that it in no way requires that one understand Ananias to be speaking of physical water baptism.

I'm earning my salvation for doing what God instructs me to do? No!!

Yes!! This is exactly what you are doing - whatever denials you might offer.

That's like saying I deserve a trophy for obeying the speed limit or paying my taxes.

Yes, it is. Which is why works play no part in one's salvation. Christ doesn't need your works to save you. Nothing you can do will ever make his atoning work at Calvary any more perfect, any more complete, than it already is. What Christ did on the cross needs no contribution of good works from us.

The good works that's causing the issue is the works like mowing the elderly widow's yard. Or, fixing the elderly's air conditioner that's broken and it's 100 deg outside and they can't afford to have it fixed. I should as a Christian do those because those are fruits of a Christian. Show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works.

Yes, you should do such things for your neighbor but they are the natural result of being indwelt by God's Spirit and of loving those God loves, not the means of maintaining one's salvation.

Baptism washes away ones sins.

No, the shed blood of Christ does that.

Matthew 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1 John 1:7
7 ...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Baptism doth also now save us.

No, it doesn't. Your excerpt from 1 Peter 3:21 is out context and does not make the case for you that you think it does.

I twist nothing that is precisely what the verses say.

As I've explained, you're not considering them carefully in coming to your conclusions.

Jesus says if I believe and am baptized i can be saved.

And in many places in Scripture that describe how to be saved, baptism is not mentioned at all. An odd thing, if it is essential to salvation. We always read of faith, or belief in Christ in those passages that speak of how to be saved, but baptism in only a few. And then there's Paul remark:

1 Corinthians 1:17
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel...

How is it possible to preach the Gospel which is, of course, for the purpose of saving souls, and yet neglect baptism if, as you say, it is vital to salvation? Paul seems to be making a distinction between the Gospel and baptism, separating them rather than uniting them, as you seem to think is necessary.

I'm told that with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Jesus says if I will confess Him before men He will then confess me before the Father.
What exactly am I twisting or ignoring.

The whole counsel of Scripture. In particular those verses that rule out works as part of salvation.

Ephesians 2:7-8
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Salvation is offered to everyone, everyone in the world that has lived since Christ. It is free by grace, to all who wii accept it.

You left out the part that excludes works as part of how one is saved. Convenient. Here's how the verse finishes: "...not of works, lest any man should boast."

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, -
Once again, works and doing what God says are two different things. If this were the only verse adressing salvation and had God not said that through baptism our sins are forgiven, we would be on the same page. But He did and I'm not in the position to question the Almighty.

Doing what God says results in works; you can't obey God and not end up doing good works. So separating obeying God and works as though they aren't inter-related is specious at best. You are essentially setting Scripture against itself and deflecting doing so by a facile "I'm not in a position to question the Almighty." No, you aren't in a position to question the Almighty. But you are in a position to better understand and handle His word than you are doing.

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, - Titus 3:5
Baptism is not a work of righteousness, it is simply something we are told to do. When we submit to God's will to be baptized our sins are washed away.

Yes, baptism is a work. You have to enact baptism, to do it - unlike simply receiving salvation by faith as Scripture says saves a person.

Physical in the sense that we submit ourselves to be baptized, spiritual sense sins are not filth or dirt that may be washed off in baptism.

Ananias doesn't say which baptism he means. But other Scripture that I offered to you help us to understand that water baptism is just a symbol, a figure, of the spiritual baptism by the Spirit by which a person is actually saved.

Holy Spirit baptism was a means of confirmation, in addition to having ones sins forgiven through baptism the one being baptised did miraculous acts.

Absolutely wrong. Spiritual regeneration happens as a consequence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, not by water baptism. I already gave you some verses that make this clear. Here are some more:

Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul says not a single word in the entire eighth chapter about baptism having anything at all to do with spiritual regeneration. But he goes on at length about how the Spirit quickens, or makes alive spiritually, all those who are saved. Along with the verses I already gave you about the Spirit "baptizing" people into Christ, what Paul writes above makes it very clear that water baptism is merely a symbolic ritual, illustrating what the Holy Spirit has done in giving a second spiritual birth to a person. For more on this see also Romans 6.

No, I understand that being told to be baptized for the remission of my sins is different from "good works". Who has the right to say what God can and can not do?

I am not questioning God, I am questioning your understanding of His word which I've shown is faulty.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Yes, of course. But trusting in Christ to save you, to be your Saviour, is no more a work than trusting in a surgeon to fix your heart-valve malfunction is a work. You trust, but the surgeon does all the work. Likewise, we trust in Christ but he does all the saving work.



Yes, right.



Nope. You are doing more than expressing faith, trust, in Christ when you are baptized, believing it contributes to your salvation. Now Christ alone is not your Saviour but Christ plus you getting baptized. Christ plus anything in order to be saved is not the Gospel.



I already addressed this verse and explained with Scripture that it in no way requires that one understand Ananias to be speaking of physical water baptism.



Yes!! This is exactly what you are doing - whatever denials you might offer.



Yes, it is. Which is why works play no part in one's salvation. Christ doesn't need your works to save you. Nothing you can do will ever make his atoning work at Calvary any more perfect, any more complete, than it already is. What Christ did on the cross needs no contribution of good works from us.



Yes, you should do such things for your neighbor but they are the natural result of being indwelt by God's Spirit and of loving those God loves, not the means of maintaining one's salvation.



No, the shed blood of Christ does that.

Matthew 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1 John 1:7
7 ...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,



No, it doesn't. Your excerpt from 1 Peter 3:21 is out context and does not make the case for you that you think it does.



As I've explained, you're not considering them carefully in coming to your conclusions.



And in many places in Scripture that describe how to be saved, baptism is not mentioned at all. An odd thing, if it is essential to salvation. We always read of faith, or belief in Christ in those passages that speak of how to be saved, but baptism in only a few. And then there's Paul remark:

1 Corinthians 1:17
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel...

How is it possible to preach the Gospel which is, of course, for the purpose of saving souls, and yet neglect baptism if, as you say, it is vital to salvation? Paul seems to be making a distinction between the Gospel and baptism, separating them rather than uniting them, as you seem to think is necessary.



The whole counsel of Scripture. In particular those verses that rule out works as part of salvation.



You left out the part that excludes works as part of how one is saved. Convenient. Here's how the verse finishes: "...not of works, lest any man should boast."



Doing what God says results in works; you can't obey God and not end up doing good works. So separating obeying God and works as though they aren't inter-related is specious at best. You are essentially setting Scripture against itself and deflecting doing so by a facile "I'm not in a position to question the Almighty." No, you aren't in a position to question the Almighty. But you are in a position to better understand and handle His word than you are doing.



Yes, baptism is a work. You have to enact baptism, to do it - unlike simply receiving salvation by faith as Scripture says saves a person.



Ananias doesn't say which baptism he means. But other Scripture that I offered to you help us to understand that water baptism is just a symbol, a figure, of the spiritual baptism by the Spirit by which a person is actually saved.



Absolutely wrong. Spiritual regeneration happens as a consequence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, not by water baptism. I already gave you some verses that make this clear. Here are some more:

Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul says not a single word in the entire eighth chapter about baptism having anything at all to do with spiritual regeneration. But he goes on at length about how the Spirit quickens, or makes alive spiritually, all those who are saved. Along with the verses I already gave you about the Spirit "baptizing" people into Christ, what Paul writes above makes it very clear that water baptism is merely a symbolic ritual, illustrating what the Holy Spirit has done in giving a second spiritual birth to a person. For more on this see also Romans 6.



I am not questioning God, I am questioning your understanding of His word which I've shown is faulty.