How Old Is The Earth

[BNR32FAN]

You really feel you tore the lecture of the scholar (John Walton) who has been teaching Hebrew and Hebrew history for decades, to shreds? Sigh.

I just wanted to say one more thing about that lecture. I put a lot of time into my refutation of that lecture and I even provided time stamps for each point I refuted so that anyone could go to that particular point in the video and review it. The whole reason I went thru the trouble of of including those time stamps is because I I am confident in the points I made against his lecture. If I wasn’t confident that he wasn’t making a good argument I wouldn’t have refuted it and I wouldn’t have included those time stamps to each particular part of the video. I tried to make it as easy as I could for anyone who wanted to challenge anything I said. Why would I do that if I wasn’t confident in what I wrote?

 

[Ted-01]

Since the Bible is completely silent about the distance of stars from the earth I strongly disagree with your opinion.

It's a common misconception that many have followed for a long time. So, I feel it's unfair to disparage folks that hold to that belief. (Though I don't mean to suggest that that is what you may be doing.

Bible commentators/commentaries, Biblical resources, including dictionaries, atlases, concordances and whatnot have long debated the cosmology of the Bible/Hebrews and claimed strong similarities and associations with Mesopotamian cosmology... and they've done so wrongly, IMHO. (And not mine only, but many modern scholars are quickly distancing themselves from that notion as well). The idea of a solid dome over the earth cannot be fairly attributed to ancient Hebrew thought. While I don't really know when the beginning of people conflating the two cosmological views started, it seems to be had been published a lot in the Middle Ages.

There's little or no ancient Hebrew source material that even speaks to cosmology... so folks just assume(d) that it must have been similar to Mesopotamian cosmology. And most, if not all Mesopotamian resources are legends and myths... while they commonly refer to gods and whatnot, there's little indication that the stories themselves were divinely inspired... vastly different than how the (Hebrew) Scripture has always been presented.

I do hope that you stick to your guns... and keep researching the topic!

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's a common misconception that many have followed for a long time. So, I feel it's unfair to disparage folks that hold to that belief. (Though I don't mean to suggest that that is what you may be doing.

Bible commentators/commentaries, Biblical resources, including dictionaries, atlases, concordances and whatnot have long debated the cosmology of the Bible/Hebrews and claimed strong similarities and associations with Mesopotamian cosmology... and they've done so wrongly, IMHO. (And not mine only, but many modern scholars are quickly distancing themselves from that notion as well). The idea of a solid dome over the earth cannot be fairly attributed to ancient Hebrew thought. While I don't really know when the beginning of people conflating the two cosmological views started, it seems to be had been published a lot in the Middle Ages.

There's little or no ancient Hebrew source material that even speaks to cosmology... so folks just assume(d) that it must have been similar to Mesopotamian cosmology. And most, if not all Mesopotamian resources are legends and myths... while they commonly refer to gods and whatnot, there's little indication that the stories themselves were divinely inspired... vastly different than how the (Hebrew) Scripture has always been presented.

I do hope that you stick to your guns... and keep researching the topic!

Here my thoughts, Jesus was constantly correcting the Jews on their interpretation of scripture. So this tells me two things. The scriptures did not derive from man, otherwise Jesus would have no basis for correcting them if they weren’t written according to God’s expectations. God has the interpretational authority because the scriptures derived from Him. If the scriptures derived from man then God would have no authority over how they are supposed to be interpreted. This tells me that the scriptures are not just ancient Jewish folk tales or legends, they’re information given to us by God Himself with a specific purpose in mind. The second thing it tells me is that Jewish interpretation means absolutely nothing about what the scriptures are saying. So when people say things like “that’s not the way the ancient Jews would’ve interpreted that passage” it’s completely irrelevant because they were notorious for misinterpreting scripture. The message that the scriptures are intended to convey is not dictated by Jewish interpretation. In fact it’s supposed to be the other way around, Jewish interpretation is supposed to be dictated by the scriptures, and that goes for any other denomination as well. If Jesus is constantly correcting the Jews on how the scriptures are supposed to be interpreted then obviously the ancient Jews are NOT the authority on scriptural interpretation. So this is why I don’t worry about how the ancient Jews interpreted scripture, they were proven to be wrong over and over. So if they came to the conclusion that the earth is flat and surrounded by a barrier of water with the sun, moon, and stars inside that barrier I have ample reason to reject that interpretation, because it wouldn’t be the first time they were wrong about how the scriptures were supposed to be interpreted.

 

[Apple Sky]

So this is why I don’t worry about how the ancient Jews interpreted scripture, they were proven to be wrong over and over. So if they came to the conclusion that the earth is flat and surrounded by a barrier of water with the sun, moon, and stars inside that barrier I have ample reason to reject that interpretation, because it wouldn’t be the first time they were wrong about how the scriptures were supposed to be interpreted.

Before Abraham was Born, I Am
…57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

So you can't tell me that the ancient Jews got Genesis 1 wrong.......

 

[Platte]

The topic you need to prove is how we can be observing supernovas up to 10B light years away, when you claim the U is only 6k yrs old. Someone is lying. Either the cosmologists are lying about astronomical observations, or your interpretation of "6 days" is a lie, or else God lied about how old the U is. By the term "lying," I'm using your terminology. Someone is certainly deceived, because there is something dreadfully wrong with this picture. What I'm questioning is the traditional interpretation of Gen. 1. I think YEC'rs are wrong, and thus their interpretation of Gen. 1 is wrong. But I expect you will continue to evade the question as you have in the past, because you can't answer it. No one has been able to answer it as of yet, not AIG or anyone else for that matter. I seriously doubt you can.

What is the speed of light?

 

[Strong in Him]

Before Abraham was Born, I Am
…57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

So you can't tell me that the ancient Jews got Genesis 1 wrong.......

Abraham isn't in Genesis 1.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Before Abraham was Born, I Am
…57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

So you can't tell me that the ancient Jews got Genesis 1 wrong.......

What does this have to do with the topic? I don’t see the relevance here.

 

[Apple Sky]

Abraham isn't in Genesis 1.

Jesus is more or less saying he is the Alpha, the beginning. Genesis 1........

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus is more or less saying he is the Alpha, the beginning. Genesis 1........

Jesus was long before Genesis 1.
The whole universe was made through him, John 1:1-3.

 

[Apple Sky]

Jesus was long before Genesis 1.
The whole universe was made through him, John 1:1-3.

I know, this is why I also believe that there is more to creation before Genesis. It is said that the book of Job predates Genesis. Therefore the earth has to be more than 6,000 years old.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I know, this is why I also believe that there is more to creation before Genesis. It is said that the book of Job predates Genesis. Therefore the earth has to be more than 6,000 years old.

Job predates the first man and woman?

 

[Strong in Him]

Job predates the first man and woman?

I've heard that the book of Job may have been written around the same time as Genesis.
I doubt Job, the man, predates Adam, though.

 

[Ted-01]

Here my thoughts, Jesus was constantly correcting the Jews on their interpretation of scripture. So this tells me two things. The scriptures did not derive from man, otherwise Jesus would have no basis for correcting them if they weren’t written according to God’s expectations. God has the interpretational authority because the scriptures derived from Him. If the scriptures derived from man then God would have no authority over how they are supposed to be interpreted. This tells me that the scriptures are not just ancient Jewish folk tales or legends, they’re information given to us by God Himself with a specific purpose in mind. The second thing it tells me is that Jewish interpretation means absolutely nothing about what the scriptures are saying. So when people say things like “that’s not the way the ancient Jews would’ve interpreted that passage” it’s completely irrelevant because they were notorious for misinterpreting scripture. The message that the scriptures are intended to convey is not dictated by Jewish interpretation. In fact it’s supposed to be the other way around, Jewish interpretation is supposed to be dictated by the scriptures, and that goes for any other denomination as well. If Jesus is constantly correcting the Jews on how the scriptures are supposed to be interpreted then obviously the ancient Jews are NOT the authority on scriptural interpretation. So this is why I don’t worry about how the ancient Jews interpreted scripture, they were proven to be wrong over and over. So if they came to the conclusion that the earth is flat and surrounded by a barrier of water with the sun, moon, and stars inside that barrier I have ample reason to reject that interpretation, because it wouldn’t be the first time they were wrong about how the scriptures were supposed to be interpreted.

I appreciate your point of view on all of this!!

I get frustrated when people teach obvious error that comes from just wrong-headedness. But I always need to rein in my impulsiveness because I too have been in error more times than I care to admit... I worry about my errors constantly and try to move slow and cautiously because of that. I need to force myself to be humble and even merciful in simple conversations. I'm a work in progress regarding all this, lol.

I highlighted the last portion of your thoughtful post because I just don't think that the Jews did see the Earth and Heavens that way, at all. Perhaps some elements/aspects had similarities to other ancient cultures, but I don't think that it's anything like what some people make it out to be. So, I just wanted to encourage you to not be swayed by the often-used notion that the Hebrew's beliefs were a product of Mesopotamian beliefs... there's no reason, in my mind, to make that abstraction. Furthermore, there are some decent scholars out there (both Christian and otherwise) that are trying to undo a lot of bunk that's been taught for a long time... and some just don't want to hear it. So, it's also important to remember that the abstraction has been taught for quite a while. I prefer not to be forceful in any of this... but to each, their own.
God Bless.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I appreciate your point of view on all of this!!

I get frustrated when people teach obvious error that comes from just wrong-headedness. But I always need to rein in my impulsiveness because I too have been in error more times than I care to admit... I worry about my errors constantly and try to move slow and cautiously because of that. I need to force myself to be humble and even merciful in simple conversations. I'm a work in progress regarding all this, lol.

I highlighted the last portion of your thoughtful post because I just don't think that the Jews did see the Earth and Heavens that way, at all. Perhaps some elements/aspects had similarities to other ancient cultures, but I don't think that it's anything like what some people make it out to be. So, I just wanted to encourage you to not be swayed by the often-used notion that the Hebrew's beliefs were a product of Mesopotamian beliefs... there's no reason, in my mind, to make that abstraction. Furthermore, there are some decent scholars out there (both Christian and otherwise) that are trying to undo a lot of bunk that's been taught for a long time... and some just don't want to hear it. So, it's also important to remember that the abstraction has been taught for quite a while. I prefer not to be forceful in any of this... but to each, their own.
God Bless.

Yeah I do admit that my posts often tend to be that of a “sugar free” nature at times.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I've heard that the book of Job may have been written around the same time as Genesis.
I doubt Job, the man, predates Adam, though.

I’m assuming that this idea that Job predates Genesis is based on the assertion that satan is in heaven when he talks to God but is that actually stated in the book of Job. I haven’t found a verse that says satan was actually in heaven. Now I didn’t have time to search the entire book this morning but I only saw verses saying that satan came before the Lord. I would point out that Moses went before the Lord several times and was not in heaven. Furthermore from the context of satan’s dialog with God it seems to me that he is already in a fallen state. He seems to be the bad guy in the story seeking to turn Job away from God. To me it seems as if he is coming to God as an adversary not a servant. That’s my assessment of the situation.

 

[SuperCow]

there are no animal classes that I’m aware of that we’ve driven to extinction. Yes there are 43 different tiger breeds and a few of them are no more. I’d hardly say we’ve been poor Stewart’s of that. Our respect for animals (especially dogs) is ridiculous at times. lol

I said species, not animals. That includes plants, insects and sea life. You're speaking from a 21st century about 21st century hyper-environmentalists. That certainly doesn't cover everyone on the earth. In Asia, they eat dogs BTW.

Very few area are polluted or destroyed
I look around and am amazed at how my city looks. How we built a great city yet maintain trees and how great it looks

So perhaps you are lucky to be living at a time and place where it isn't polluted. Not everyone is so lucky.

Then what can you say it’s reasonably made for?

I don't think anyone living today will ever know. Nobody in the distant past even knew what existed beyond the visible 6000+ stars and planets we can see. (If there was some unrecorded or lost knowledge in the past, it would still be less on balance than what we know of today.)

Regardless, nobody living today will even be able to explore the closest star to us, let alone billions of stars we can't see. That doesn't sound like it's made for me, not that I begrudge God for perhaps having some interest in places outside of our planet. It's the height of arrogance to assume that everything we can see, no matter how large or distant, is for us.

An evening and a morning requires light. There was light

But there was no distinguishing of said light into a day or night.

They were created with fruit

No, Genesis 1 is very specific in its language tense. God says [let something happen] and then the following phrase is what happened.

"The land produced vegetation..." It does not say "God created the land with vegetation", which is what would be required for it to have happened in one day.

In my opinion, only the first two days could possibly be interpreted to have happened in 24 hour periods.

 

[SuperCow]

It says that, with God, as day is AS a thousand years and a thousand years is AS a day. "As" and "like" are similes - not an exact science or literal description.
God is outside time. We say something is a long time; with God, it's far less. Revelation says "behold I am coming soon." That "soon" has, for us, been nearly 2000 years and counting. Every generation interprets that "soon" to be within their lifetime.

The Bible does not say 1 day IS 1000 years.

I agree actually. That is why those two scriptures are only examples to help explain time to people of that age. If you say a creative day might be a billion years old, that is an inconcievably long period to most people, but they could read in the Biblical scrolls (and other sources) about a thousand years of history. So the Bible just hints at it with the [day is as a thousand years]. The period of the creative days is indeed outside of time, and shouldn't be understood as specific periods.

 

[SuperCow]

I know, this is why I also believe that there is more to creation before Genesis. It is said that the book of Job predates Genesis. Therefore the earth has to be more than 6,000 years old.

I've heard that the book of Job may have been written around the same time as Genesis.
I doubt Job, the man, predates Adam, though.

The book of Job may have been written before Genesis. Other books also may have been written before Genesis. (Though the term book in this case should probably be either scroll, cuneiform or clay tablet)

But the actual details of the book of Job could not be before creation, or even before the flood. Why? Because Job 1:1 says right in the beginning "In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job.". The land of Uz didn't exist until after the flood.

Genesis 10:22,23 "The sons of Shem, Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, and Aram, The sons of Aram, Uz..."

So the city of Uz is named after the great-grandson of Noah. So Job had to live after that time. It likely was first known to Abraham, and ended up known to Moses through either Israel (through Jacob) or Midian (Abraham's son through Keturah, and ancestor of Moses father-in-law, who was a priest according to Exodus 18:1).

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree actually. That is why those two scriptures are only examples to help explain time to people of that age. If you say a creative day might be a billion years old, that is an inconcievably long period to most people, but they could read in the Biblical scrolls (and other sources) about a thousand years of history. So the Bible just hints at it with the [day is as a thousand years]. The period of the creative days is indeed outside of time, and shouldn't be understood as specific periods.

I don’t see how the phrase “with the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day” explains time to people of that particular time period. It seems to me that it was written to convey how God perceives time because it’s not in accordance to how man perceives time.

 

[SuperCow]

I don’t see how the phrase “with the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day” explains time to people of that particular time period. It seems to me that it was written to convey how God perceives time because it’s not in accordance to how man perceives time.

Exactly, and only God could have authored chapter one of Genesis, because man didn't witness the events. So it is written in accordance with how God perceives time.