How Old Is The Earth

[SuperCow]

also It is interesting that we can’t see any planets further than 6000 light years away. Planets are seen with reflective light which we do know is 186,000 miles per second.

Mathematically, this contradicts your previous statement. As you have pointed out, you can only measure light by reflection. This is because you can't synchronize a timing device at the source and origin, because as soon as you move one of them, their reference point changes. So reflected light that originates and ends at the same location is the only way to do it.

So let's assume that you put a mirror on the moon, and for ease of calculation assume that the moon is exactly 186,282 miles away. (299,792 kilometers) So you do your experiment and determine that it takes exactly two seconds for the light to be reflected back to you.

By your own statements, you don't know how long it took to get there, but somehow you know how long it took to get back. If the times were different, you wouldn't actually know either speed. It could take 3 times as long to get there. (1.5 seconds --> Moon / 0.5 seconds return), or it could be (0.5 seconds --> moon / 1.5 seconds return). All you know is the total time. Maybe it's the reflected light that is instant and it takes a full 2 seconds to get there.

You could apply this reasoning to other waves too. How do you know that a radio wave (which scientists believe also travels at the speed of light) isn't going 10x the speed of light most of the way, and then slows down to a crawl when it's a few hundred feet from your antenna?

 

[Neogaia777]

No. The Genesis 6 reference is of these very same angels. That's why Peter and Jude both reference the flood when they speak of angels rebelling against God.

I gave you the correct information in post #1,206.

You can take it or leave it.

God Bless.

 

[Job 33:6]

The book of Enoch is a fabrication written long after both the OT and NT scriptures that we have, etc.

It's not new to me, but I think the book of Enoch is a clever fabrication that was written long after the OT and NT scriptures that we have, etc.

And no, Enoch was not written after the new testament scriptures. Jude and Peter reference and quote Enoch. Regardless of what you think about the book, it is what it is.

 

[Job 33:6]

I gave you the correct information in post #1,206.

You can take it or leave it.

God Bless.

And I'm informing you, with direct quotes of passages in the old testament, that the sons of God are angels. I'm sorry if you can't accept what the Bible says, but that's not my problem.

Psalms 89:6-7 LEB
[6] For who in the sky is equal to Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of God, [7] a God feared greatly in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all surrounding him?

Job 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And it happened one day that the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst. [7] So Yahweh said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, “From roaming on the earth and from walking about in it.”

 

[SuperCow]

The book of Enoch is a fabrication written long after both the OT and NT scriptures that we have, etc.

It's not new to me, but I think the book of Enoch is a clever fabrication that was written long after the OT and NT scriptures that we have, etc.

It may be a fabrication, but it couldn't have been written after the New Testament, because partial copies of it were found in the Dead Sea scrolls. So the Essenes believed it to be inspired based on other references to it in the Dead Sea scrolls. That doesn't necessarily mean it was inspired, or that the copies we have were original.

I should be noted that Jude 14,15 is an indisputable quote from the book of Enoch. (At least no other book has been found that Jude could have been referencing.)

(But then Jude 9 also quotes from the Apocryphal work "The Assumption of Moses")

 

[Job 33:6]

But I'm not talking about the business of angels having sexual relations with human women, as apparently the Book of Enoch says. I was meaning only what Peter and Jude actually wrote in their letters. Jude talks about the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints, and Peter writes of God not having spared the angels that sinned - no mention of sexual relations. So no, of course I don't believe that angels came down out of sky to have sexual relations with women. The bible does not teach that, and if the Book of Enoch does, perhaps that's reason not to trust it. The Old Testament does talk about the sons of God taking the daughters of men in marriage:

“1 ¶ Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they [were] beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.” (Ge 6:1-2 NKJV)

But there is no mention of angels.

Here are some passages for reference.

Not we know that Jude directly references Enoch. He even named Enoch in the book of Jude.

Jude 1:14-15 LEB
[14] And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about these people, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones [15] to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So hopefully everyone agrees so far. It's there. You can see Enoch named point blank.

Now compare Jude to Enoch

1 Enoch 1:9
Behold, he comes with a myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.

And Peter does the same thing.

And both Peter and Jude identify the Genesis 6 sons of God as angels.

Jude 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, [7] as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4-6 LEB
[4] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, [5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, [6] and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,

 

[Job 33:6]

I gave you the correct information in post #1,206.

You can take it or leave it.

God Bless.

Here are some passages for reference.

We know that Jude directly references Enoch. He even named Enoch in the book of Jude.

Jude 1:14-15 LEB
[14] And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about these people, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones [15] to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So hopefully everyone agrees so far. It's there. You can see Enoch named point blank.

Now compare Jude to Enoch

1 Enoch 1:9
Behold, he comes with a myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.

And Peter does the same thing.

And both Peter and Jude identify the Genesis 6 sons of God as angels.

Jude 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, [7] as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4-6 LEB
[4] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, [5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, [6] and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,

And we know that in the Old Testament, the sons of God are angels, consider the next couple passages for example:

Psalms 89:6-7 LEB
[6] For who in the sky is equal to Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of God, [7] a God feared greatly in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all surrounding him?

Job 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And it happened one day that the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst. [7] So Yahweh said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, “From roaming on the earth and from walking about in it.”

So you can either accept what the Bible says, or you can't, and that's up to you.

 

[Job 33:6]

It may be a fabrication, but it couldn't have been written after the New Testament, because partial copies of it were found in the Dead Sea scrolls. So the Essenes believed it to be inspired based on other references to it in the Dead Sea scrolls. That doesn't necessarily mean it was inspired, or that the copies we have were original.

I should be noted that Jude 14,15 is an indisputable quote from the book of Enoch. (At least no other book has been found that Jude could have been referencing.)

(But then Jude 9 also quotes from the Apocryphal work "The Assumption of Moses")

And that's true as well. Jude references not just Enoch, but also the Assumption of Moses. Further driving the point home.

Thank you.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here are some passages for reference.

We know that Jude directly references Enoch. He even named Enoch in the book of Jude.

Jude 1:14-15 LEB
[14] And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about these people, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones [15] to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So hopefully everyone agrees so far. It's there. You can see Enoch named point blank.

Now compare Jude to Enoch

1 Enoch 1:9
Behold, he comes with a myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.

And Peter does the same thing.

And both Peter and Jude identify the Genesis 6 sons of God as angels.

Jude 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, [7] as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4-6 LEB
[4] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, [5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, [6] and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,

So you can either accept what the Bible says, or you can't, and that's up to you.

With the above quote stated, going back to the original topic at hand.

Do the New Testament Authors quote ancient literature in non-literal ways? Or do they quote ancient literature and reference concepts and topics that aren't literally true?

All the time. They do this on a regular basis.

And that includes enochian tradition and literature around the Genesis 6 flood.

Jesus gave many parables throughout the Bible. We know that truth can be taught with use of non-literal illustrations. We know that the new testament authors, regardless of what they believed about Enoch, that they can in fact use mythological stories to convey theological truths.

And that's just a basic fact about scripture.

 

[SuperCow]

2 Peter 2:4-6 LEB
[4] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, [5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, [6] and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,

Peter's use of Tartarus is interesting here too. In Greek mythology, Tartarus was the prison for the gods that fought against Zeus. Peter is not likely referring to Greek mythology to make his point. The other place that the word Tartarus is used happens to be in the Book of Enoch, to reference the punishment of the angels that sinned coming to earth and spawning the Nephilim. (And in my view directly necessitating the need for the global flood to eliminate the hybrid abomination and restart a pure humanity on earth.)

 

[Neogaia777]

@Job 33:6 @SuperCow

Ok, well, maybe I'm prejudiced/biased against the book of Enoch right now, and need to look into it more.

Thanks for the info.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

With the above quote stated, going back to the original topic at hand.

Do the New Testament Authors quote ancient literature in non-literal ways? Or do they quote ancient literature and reference concepts and topics that aren't literally true?

All the time. They do this on a regular basis.

And that includes enochian tradition and literature around the Genesis 6 flood.

Jesus gave many parables throughout the Bible. We know that truth can be taught with use of non-literal illustrations. We know that the new testament authors, regardless of what they believed about Enoch, that they can in fact use mythological stories to convey theological truths.

And that's just a basic fact about scripture.

I very much highly doubt they believed they were mythological, etc.

And so if they are mythological, then the other much more likely and logical assumption is, that they didn't know the whole truth, and were in some ways decieved, etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

I very much highly doubt they believed they were mythological, etc.

And so if they are mythological, then the other much more likely and logical assumption is, that they didn't know the whole truth, and were in some ways decieved, etc.

There's nothing wrong with narratives being mythological. It simply relates to the narrative containing supernatural entities. Doesn't mean the story doesn't hold truth. Same with the assumption of Moses, which is also referenced by Jude, in which satan has a dispute with the archangel Micheal over the body of Moses.

Do you think the assumption of Moses is a literal historical narrative as well? It's not canon. It's ancient Jewish extrabiblical literature.

Moses prayed that if he might not enter into the Promised Land, he might at least be allowed to live; but God told him that unless he died in this world he could have no life in the world to come, and commanded Gabriel to fetch his soul. Gabriel shrank from the task. Michael was next bidden to go, and he too shrank; and then the command was given to Sammael, who found him with his face shining as the light, and he was afraid and trembled. He told him why he was come, and Moses asked him who had sent him, and he made answer that he was sent by the Creator of the Universe. But Moses still held out, and Sammael returned with his task unfulfilled. And Moses prayed, ‘Lord of the World, give not my soul over to the Angel of Death.” And there came a voice from Heaven, ‘Fear not, Moses, I will provide for thy burial,’ and Moses stood up and sanctified himself as do the Seraphim, and the Most High came down from Heaven and the three chief angels with Him. Michael prepared the bier and Gabriel spread out the winding sheet.… And the Most High kissed him, and through that kiss took his soul to Himself”
Debarim Rabba i.e. the Midrash on Deuteronomy

 

[Job 33:6]

I very much highly doubt they believed they were mythological, etc.

And so if they are mythological, then the other much more likely and logical assumption is, that they didn't know the whole truth, and were in some ways decieved, etc.

Anyone can cite mythological literature without needing to be deceived by it.

I can cite Lord of the rings. But that wouldn't require my belief in the series as a literal historical narrative.

What Jude and Peter believed about extrabiblical texts can be debated. If they took Enoch as history, then that might be an issue for literalists. Or they could take the text literarily, and gain insights on it, using it for cultural reference, without it needing to be a historical account. But that would just reaffirm my original point.

 

[tdidymas]

Nope. Not claiming anything. I do not have adequate knowledge to make any claims. Just noting and observing. I think the universe is older than 6000 years old

You're caught in a big fat lie. You said:

The Earth was created approximately 6000 years ago not billions of years ago.

Yes, in an underhanded way you are trying to assert your belief. You are indeed claiming this, therefore you have lied. Why should I even continue a conversation with you? You're not trustworthy.

 

[tdidymas]

Dimmer does not mean slower though, etc. Not unless they are passing through two different mediums, etc.

It seems to me that he is trying to convince people that light travels across billions of LY instantaneously if it's from a direct source, but once it is reflected from anything it becomes 186k mps. How ludicrous is that?

 

[Neogaia777]

Anyone can cite mythological literature without needing to be deceived by it.

I can cite Lord of the rings. But that wouldn't require my belief in the series as a literal historical narrative.

What Jude and Peter believed about extrabiblical texts can be debated. If they took Enoch as history, then that might be an issue for literalists. Or they could take the text literarily, and gain insights on it, using it for cultural reference, without it needing to be a historical account. But that would just reaffirm my original point.

What if other books of the Bible are mythological?

How do you distinguish one from the other?

 

[Neogaia777]

There's nothing wrong with narratives being mythological. It simply relates to the narrative containing supernatural entities. Doesn't mean the story doesn't hold truth. Same with the assumption of Moses, which is also referenced by Jude, in which satan has a dispute with the archangel Micheal over the body of Moses.

Do you think the assumption of Moses is a literal historical narrative as well? It's not canon. It's ancient Jewish extrabiblical literature.

Moses prayed that if he might not enter into the Promised Land, he might at least be allowed to live; but God told him that unless he died in this world he could have no life in the world to come, and commanded Gabriel to fetch his soul. Gabriel shrank from the task. Michael was next bidden to go, and he too shrank; and then the command was given to Sammael, who found him with his face shining as the light, and he was afraid and trembled. He told him why he was come, and Moses asked him who had sent him, and he made answer that he was sent by the Creator of the Universe. But Moses still held out, and Sammael returned with his task unfulfilled. And Moses prayed, ‘Lord of the World, give not my soul over to the Angel of Death.” And there came a voice from Heaven, ‘Fear not, Moses, I will provide for thy burial,’ and Moses stood up and sanctified himself as do the Seraphim, and the Most High came down from Heaven and the three chief angels with Him. Michael prepared the bier and Gabriel spread out the winding sheet.… And the Most High kissed him, and through that kiss took his soul to Himself”
Debarim Rabba i.e. the Midrash on Deuteronomy

I haven't really looked very deep into extra-biblical texts, and so would have to look into them a lot more.

Some of them are fantastical stories, etc.

 

[Neogaia777]

It seems to me that he is trying to convince people that light travels across billions of LY instantaneously if it's from a direct source, but once it is reflected from anything it becomes 186k mps. How ludicrous is that?

I started a thread on it in the Physical and Life Sciences Forum here:

Is the speed of light a constant? Or can it vary? If so, in what kinds of situations, or how much?

Is the speed of light truly a constant? Or can it vary? If so, in what kind of situations, or how much can it vary? I'm asking for someone in another thread, told him I would bring it here and ask some honest questions about it here. He posted this article...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm reading Wikipedia article on the book of Enoch right now.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From the article:

In 1838, Laurence also released the first Ethiopic text of 1 Enoch published in the West, under the title: Libri Enoch Prophetae Versio Aethiopica. The text, divided into 105 chapters, was soon considered unreliable as it was the transcription of a single Ethiopic manuscript.

I am still looking into it more, and other Apocrypha.

God Bless.