How Old Is The Earth

[Platte]

The new testament authors also are not claiming to take the Bible "literally" in all cases. Jude and Peter quote and draw from the book of Enoch, which isn't even considered canon.

Care to share an example of when they don’t? I certainly don’t see Jesus or any other author doing anything like you are doing and saying is necessary to read the Bible. Every example that I see they refer to and simply state what was literally written in the same manner that I read it.

 

[Job 33:6]

The Jude passage you refer to is probably this:

“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,” (Jude 1:14 NKJV)

2 Peter has:

“For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;” (2Pe 2:4 NKJV)

Both of those two quotes are about literal events. If the NT authors use extra-biblical sources in a literal way, then when they quote the OT itself, why should it be any different?

No, they're not about literal events. It's extrabiblical reference to a narrative involving angels having affairs with human women, and those women subsequently having giant children. And these angels taught mankind dark arts such as magic and astrology. Things that aren't literally real in and of themselves.

When you read 1 Enoch, do you think it's a literal story?

Do you think that spirit beings actually rebelled against God, coming down from the sky, and having sexual relations with human women? And that their children were giants? Some of which perhaps even ate human beings?

If you think this is a straight literal history of events of the past, I would say that's ludicrous.

 

[Neogaia777]

No, they're not about literal events. It's extrabiblical reference to a narrative involving angels having affairs with human women, and those women subsequently having giant children.

When you read 1 Enoch, do you think it's a literal story?

Do you think that spirit beings actually rebelled against God, coming down from the sky, and having sexual relations with human women? And that their children were giants? Some of which perhaps even ate human beings?

If you think this is a straight literal history of events of the past, I would say that's ludicrous.

The Bible doesn't say they were spirit beings, or even angels, but only that they were "Sons of God", etc.

I believe they were the original descendants of Adam and Eve who were a specially created race/species of humans, etc.

Please see this post here: Exodus evidence (part 2 updated)

 

[Job 33:6]

The Bible doesn't say they were spirit beings, or even angels, but only that they were "Sons of God", etc.

I believe they were the original descendants of Adam and Eve who were a specially created race/species of humans, etc.

Please see this post here: Exodus evidence (part 2 updated)

Peter and Jude clearly reference spirits, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[David Lamb]

No, they're not about literal events. It's extrabiblical reference to a narrative involving angels having affairs with human women, and those women subsequently having giant children. And these angels taught mankind dark arts such as magic and astrology. Things that aren't literally real in and of themselves.

When you read 1 Enoch, do you think it's a literal story?

Do you think that spirit beings actually rebelled against God, coming down from the sky, and having sexual relations with human women? And that their children were giants? Some of which perhaps even ate human beings?

If you think this is a straight literal history of events of the past, I would say that's ludicrous.

But I'm not talking about the business of angels having sexual relations with human women, as apparently the Book of Enoch says. I was meaning only what Peter and Jude actually wrote in their letters. Jude talks about the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints, and Peter writes of God not having spared the angels that sinned - no mention of sexual relations. So no, of course I don't believe that angels came down out of sky to have sexual relations with women. The bible does not teach that, and if the Book of Enoch does, perhaps that's reason not to trust it. The Old Testament does talk about the sons of God taking the daughters of men in marriage:

“1 ¶ Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they [were] beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.” (Ge 6:1-2 NKJV)

But there is no mention of angels.

 

[Neogaia777]

Peter and Jude clearly reference spirits, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Peter does not indicate that he is referring to the Sons of God spoken of in Genesis 6 at all, and the only possibility in Jude is only found in Jude 1:6-7 because he talks about angels being guilty of sexual immorality, etc, but also does not say or indicate at all that he is talking about the Sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6 before the Flood when he says that, etc.

I'm trying to say that Adam and Eve and their descendants afterward were the Sons of God in Genesis 6 before the Flood, etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

But I'm not talking about whether the business of angels having sexual relations with human women, as apparently the Book of Enoch says. I was meaning only what Peter and Jude actually wrote in their letters. Jude talks about the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints, and Peter writes of God not having spared the angels that sinned - no mention of sexual relations. So no, of course I don't believe that angels came down out of sky to have sexual relations with women. The bible does not teach that, and if the Book of Enoch does, perhaps that's reason not to trust it. The Old Testament does talk about the sons of God taking the daughters of men in marriage:

“1 ¶ Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they [were] beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.” (Ge 6:1-2 NKJV)

But there is no mention of angels.

Peter and Jude are referencing Enoch. You're saying that there's no mention of angels, but that's specifically what Jude and Peter speak of.

 

[Job 33:6]

Peter does not indicate that he is referring to the Sons of God spoken of in Genesis 6 at all, and the only possibility that Jude is referring to those ones specifically is only found in Jude 1:6-7.

I'm trying to say that Adam and Eve and their descendants afterward were the Sons of God in Genesis 6 before the Flood, etc.

Both Peter and Jude are referencing Enoch. Not just in those individual passages. It sounds like you're arguing that they aren't, but that's simply a false understanding of the subject.

 

[David Lamb]

Peter and Jude are referencing Enoch. You're saying that there's no mention of angels, but that's specifically what Jude and Peter speak of.

I didn't say that Peter and Jude didn't mention angels. I had just quoted Genesis 6:1-2 about the sons of God taking the daughters of men as wives, and that was the context of my words "no mention of angels". Sorry if I did not make my post sufficiently clear.

 

[Neogaia777]

Both Peter and Jude are referencing Enoch. Not just in those individual passages. It sounds like you're arguing that they aren't, but that's simply a false understanding of the subject.

I edited my post, look at it again.

And I suggest you do a little bit more research on why the book of Enoch isn't cannon, or is rejected as cannon, and stop following it, etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

I had just quoted Genesis 6:1-2 about the sons of God taking the daughters of men as wives, and that was the context of my words "no mention of angels". Sorry if I did not make my post sufficiently clear.

Also, in the old testament, the sons of God are angels.

Here are a couple examples:

Psalms 89:6-7 LEB
[6] For who in the sky is equal to Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of God, [7] a God feared greatly in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all surrounding him?

Job 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And it happened one day that the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst. [7] So Yahweh said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, “From roaming on the earth and from walking about in it.”

 

[Job 33:6]

But I'm not talking about the business of angels having sexual relations with human women, as apparently the Book of Enoch says. I was meaning only what Peter and Jude actually wrote in their letters. Jude talks about the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints, and Peter writes of God not having spared the angels that sinned - no mention of sexual relations. So no, of course I don't believe that angels came down out of sky to have sexual relations with women. The bible does not teach that, and if the Book of Enoch does, perhaps that's reason not to trust it. The Old Testament does talk about the sons of God taking the daughters of men in marriage:

“1 ¶ Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they [were] beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.” (Ge 6:1-2 NKJV)

But there is no mention of angels.

Also, we are talking about the new testament authors. Not about Genesis specifically. And Peter and Jude are both talking about angels. And yes, they are referencing Enoch.

 

[Job 33:6]

Peter does not indicate that he is referring to the Sons of God spoken of in Genesis 6 at all, and the only possibility in Jude is only found in Jude 1:6-7 because he talks about angels being guilty of sexual immorality, etc, but also does not say or indicate at all that he is talking about the Sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6 before the Flood when he says that, etc.

I'm trying to say that Adam and Eve and their descendants afterward were the Sons of God in Genesis 6 before the Flood, etc.

That's an incorrect understanding of the subject. Both Peter and Jude draw on Enoch heavily. Jude even verbatim quotes enoch.

 

[Neogaia777]

The Bible doesn't say they were spirit beings, or even angels, but only that they were "Sons of God", etc.

Yes, I was talking about Genesis 6 here as well, etc.

They do not say they were angels or spirit beings there, etc.

 

[Neogaia777]

That's an incorrect understanding of the subject. Both Peter and Jude draw on Enoch heavily.

Do more research into why the book of Enoch is not cannon, and stop following it.

And I'm not talking about the book of Enoch, but am talking about how the Sons of God spoken of in Genesis 6 don't have to be angels, or spirit beings, etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's an incorrect understanding of the subject. Both Peter and Jude draw on Enoch heavily.

Do more research into why the book of Enoch is not cannon, and stop following it.

And I'm not talking about the book of Enoch, but am talking about how the Sons of God spoken of in Genesis 6 don't have to be angels, or spirit beings, etc.

I'm not following Enoch, I'm just pointing out that Peter and Jude both quote and reference Enoch.

And that's a fact.

Sorry if this subject is new to you.

 

[Job 33:6]

Do more research into why the book of Enoch is not cannon, and stop following it.

And I'm not talking about the book of Enoch, but am talking about how the Sons of God spoken of in Genesis 6 don't have to be angels, or spirit beings, etc.

In the Old Testament, the sons of God are angels, I'm sorry if this is news to you as well. Here are a couple example passages.

Psalms 89:6-7 LEB
[6] For who in the sky is equal to Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of God, [7] a God feared greatly in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all surrounding him?

Job 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And it happened one day that the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst. [7] So Yahweh said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, “From roaming on the earth and from walking about in it.”

 

[Neogaia777]

In the Old Testament, the sons of God are angels.

Not every reference is.

Before the Flood, specially created man were also sometimes called or were referred to as Sons of God as well, etc.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm not following Enoch, I'm just pointing out that Peter and Jude both quote and reference Enoch.

The book of Enoch is a fabrication written long after both the OT and NT scriptures that we have, etc.

Sorry if this subject is new to you.

It's not new to me, but I think the book of Enoch is a clever fabrication that was written long after the OT and NT scriptures that we have, etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

Not every reference is.

Before the Flood, specially created man we're also sometimes called or were referred to as Sons of God as well, etc.

No. The Genesis 6 reference is of these very same angels. That's why Peter and Jude both reference the flood when they speak of angels rebelling against God.