How old is the earth?

[Diamond7]

I would say in the sense of prepared wine that only one is true and that the wine is seconds old. despite its characteristics being similar to that of old wine doesn't actually make it old wine, it just makes it appear like old wine.

Old and new wine represents the old and new covenant. That is why you cannot put old wine into new wineskins. The wedding represents the wedding feast of the Lamb. We cannot understand the literal if we do not understand the symbolism.

The "marriage feast of the Lamb" is a metaphorical image described in Revelation 19:6-9, which symbolizes the ultimate union between Christ (often referred to as the Lamb of God) and his followers, who are often referred to as the "bride of Christ." This union represents the culmination of salvation history and the unity between Christ and his believers in the final days.

The symbolic connection between the Wedding at Cana and the marriage feast of the Lamb comes from the idea that the miracle at the wedding, where Jesus turned water into wine, foreshadows the abundance and joy that will be present in the eternal kingdom of God. Just as the wine miraculously flowed at the earthly wedding feast, so too will the blessings and joy flow in the divine kingdom.

 

[DamianWarS]

Old and new wine represents the old and new covenant.

yes, I get that part, but in terms of its physical characteristics, the wine can only be seconds old.

 

[Diamond7]

yes, I get that part, but in terms of its physical characteristics, the wine can only be seconds old.

Which means there was no fermenting process. We do see instant miracles, but some miracles are gradual and take place over time. There is no decay in Heaven so the wine in Heaven will not be fermented. Alcohol actually makes me sick, I can not tolerate food that is rotted and decayed.

 

[DamianWarS]

Which means there was no fermenting process. We do see instant miracles, but some miracles are gradual and take place over time. There is no decay in Heaven so the wine in Heaven will not be fermented. Alcohol actually makes me sick, I can not tolerate food that is rotted and decayed.

heaven is a spiritual place, when we die our physical bodies remain in the ground so that which goes to heaven is not of a physical substance and neither is the place that we go to, to speak of physical decay is meaningless in heaven as there is no physical to decay. So it is somewhat arbitrary to superimpose physical characteristics over this heavenly experience, Heaven is also not our final destination if we are to accept post-resurrection events, eventually, there will be a new heaven and new earth where everything gets reset.

I do not know the characteristics of the wine made from water at the wedding nor am I a wine expert to really comment on specifics, only that we know the master thought it was of choice quality so it would stand to reason the fermentation of the wine would match which was considered choice quality. if that was fermented or not I don't know but I don't see it inconsistent spiritually speaking either way, Jesus simply gave them the best. But I get your point in a new covenant vacuum it should be a new wine and thus have a new wine characteristic. my only point is that whatever the characteristic, even if it matches an aged wine, it was still only a few seconds old (and because of that it still is new wine).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which means there was no fermenting process. We do see instant miracles, but some miracles are gradual and take place over time. There is no decay in Heaven so the wine in Heaven will not be fermented. Alcohol actually makes me sick, I can not tolerate food that is rotted and decayed.

Wine with no fermenting process is called grape juice. Do you know why wine was such a desired drink for feasts & celebrations? Because it was the only way it could be kept in large quantities for long periods of time. Without any refrigeration fruit juices would spoil in just a couple of days whereas wine could be kept for much longer without spoiling. So the common choices of drinks back then was mainly either water or wine. Vineyard farmers, only having one harvest per year, didn’t have much of a choice but to ferment their grapes otherwise they wouldn’t be able to sell all their produce before it spoiled. So there wasn’t really much to choose from when it came to drinks back then.

 

[BNR32FAN]

heaven is a spiritual place, when we die our physical bodies remain in the ground so that which goes to heaven is not of a physical substance and neither is the place that we go to, to speak of physical decay is meaningless in heaven as there is no physical to decay. So it is somewhat arbitrary to superimpose physical characteristics over this heavenly experience, Heaven is also not our final destination if we are to accept post-resurrection events, eventually, there will be a new heaven and new earth where everything gets reset.

I do not know the characteristics of the wine made from water at the wedding nor am I a wine expert to really comment on specifics, only that we know the master thought it was of choice quality so it would stand to reason the fermentation of the wine would match which was considered choice quality. if that was fermented or not I don't know but I don't see it inconsistent spiritually speaking either way, Jesus simply gave them the best. But I get your point in a new covenant vacuum it should be a new wine and thus have a new wine characteristic. my only point is that whatever the characteristic, even if it matches an aged wine, it was still only a few seconds old (and because of that it still is new wine).

Many believe that we will have physical bodies in the afterlife in the new Earth. Jesus also alluded to eating the Passover feast again after the Last Supper.

 

[BNR32FAN]

heaven is a spiritual place, when we die our physical bodies remain in the ground so that which goes to heaven is not of a physical substance and neither is the place that we go to, to speak of physical decay is meaningless in heaven as there is no physical to decay. So it is somewhat arbitrary to superimpose physical characteristics over this heavenly experience, Heaven is also not our final destination if we are to accept post-resurrection events, eventually, there will be a new heaven and new earth where everything gets reset.

I do not know the characteristics of the wine made from water at the wedding nor am I a wine expert to really comment on specifics, only that we know the master thought it was of choice quality so it would stand to reason the fermentation of the wine would match which was considered choice quality. if that was fermented or not I don't know but I don't see it inconsistent spiritually speaking either way, Jesus simply gave them the best. But I get your point in a new covenant vacuum it should be a new wine and thus have a new wine characteristic. my only point is that whatever the characteristic, even if it matches an aged wine, it was still only a few seconds old (and because of that it still is new wine).

If you’re a vineyard owner and you want to sell your product before it spoils you’re going to have to ferment it otherwise it will spoil in just a couple of days. That’s why the only drinks you typically see mentioned in the Bible are water & wine because fruit juices won’t last more than a couple of days without refrigeration and harvesting time is still quite a long time before winter.

 

[DamianWarS]

\Many believe that we will have physical bodies in the afterlife in the new Earth. Jesus also alluded to eating the Passover feast again after the Last Supper.

that is all post-resurrection events. The resurrection is involving our physical bodies but since the resurrection hasn't happened if we die today and "go to to heaven" our bodies are not the substance that goes.

If you’re a vineyard owner and you want to sell your product before it spoils you’re going to have to ferment it otherwise it will spoil in just a couple of days. That’s why the only drinks you typically see mentioned in the Bible are water & wine because fruit juices won’t last more than a couple of days without refrigeration and harvesting time is still quite a long time before winter.

sure, but that's not my point. if adequate fermentation was present in this wine or not the wine is still the same age. Jesus did not make "a couple of days old" wine. He made wine and its age is relative to time not relative to the characteristics of the wine.

 

[Diamond7]

Wine with no fermenting process is called grape juice.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

Jesus does not same "grape juice", wine that has not fermented He calls "new wine".

The metaphor of "new wine" can represent the new and transformative teachings of Jesus, and the "old wineskins" can represent the established religious traditions and practices of the time. Just as new wine needs new wineskins that can expand and accommodate the fermentation process, Jesus is suggesting that his teachings require open minds and hearts that are willing to embrace new perspectives and ideas.

 

[tonychanyt]

no

Define time.

 

[DamianWarS]

Define time.

the passing of hours, minutes, seconds, etc.... time could be measured more abstractly but I don't see a shared definition that can call the wine both new and old at the same time. The earth is not a new earth trapped in an old earth body. it is either a new earth or an old earth.

 

[tonychanyt]

the passing of hours, minutes, seconds, etc.... time could be measured more abstractly but I don't see a shared definition that can call the wine both new and old at the same time. The earth is not a new earth trapped in an old earth body. it is either a new earth or an old earth.

Do you know that the passing of time is relative?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you know that the passing of time is relative?

If your position is that time is not relative to God, which would absolutely agree with, then surely you must realize that from that perspective the creation days would’ve been both instantaneous and eternal to Him at the same time. From God’s perspective being outside of time all time is both instantaneous and eternal at the same time because He exists in all time simultaneously. From God’s perspective He doesn’t have to wait for anything to happen it’s all happening simultaneously from His perspective. Only from a human perspective is time relaxant. So because the creation days are explained using a measurement of time that can only be perceived from a human perspective we have to conclude that the process was being explained according to time from a human perspective. So the idea that these days or “yoms” were being explained from God’s perspective doesn’t accurately describe how God would’ve perceived the creation process.

 

[tonychanyt]

If your position is that time is not relative to God,

My position is that God is outside of time because he created it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My position is that God is outside of time because he created it.

Yes I would agree with that but how were you applying that to the discussion in regards the wine Jesus created at Cana?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Matthew 9:17 Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

Jesus does not same "grape juice", wine that has not fermented He calls "new wine".

The metaphor of "new wine" can represent the new and transformative teachings of Jesus, and the "old wineskins" can represent the established religious traditions and practices of the time. Just as new wine needs new wineskins that can expand and accommodate the fermentation process, Jesus is suggesting that his teachings require open minds and hearts that are willing to embrace new perspectives and ideas.

Grape juice doesn’t have yeast added to it, new wine does. That’s what causes the fermenting process. It’s also what would cause old wine skins to burst because they’re already stretched from the pressure that occurs in the fermenting process.

I do agree with your interpretation of that passage tho. Awesome job there.

 

[tonychanyt]

Yes I would agree with that but how were you applying that to the discussion in regards the wine Jesus created at Cana?

I didn't. In fact, on the contrary, I tried to look at time from different human perspectives.

 

[DamianWarS]

Do you know that the passing of time is relative?

Since Jesus did not fly the guests of the party around the earth faster than the speed of light there is no reason to think the wine's frame of reference for time was different from the observers of the party. Since they had a shared frame of reference the age of the wine is the same.

in relation to Earth, in the beginning, there is no competing frames of reference since God is the only one observing things there is only 1 measuring stick and time is not relative. However, since he operates outside of time his measure would have to be translated into a shared frame of reference otherwise it would be nonsensical because it would be everything and nothing all at once. That shared frame of reference would be the shared human experience and in that vacuum, the age of the earth is always the same.

In a manner of speaking all measurement is relative but since we all share a common frame of reference the measurement is the same and it can't be 6 billion years old and 6 thousand years old at the same time in that shared frame of reference. If you're going to claim different ages at the same time in the name of relativity you need to also unpack what the frames of references are.

 

[Diamond7]

Grape juice doesn’t have yeast added to it, new wine does. That’s what causes the fermenting process.

I have never been in prison, so I do not know how they make alcohol. But I hear they can make it out of most anything. Jesus says, "Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined."

 

[The Barbarian]

Grape juice doesn’t have yeast added to it, new wine does. That’s what causes the fermenting process.

There are natural yeast on the skins of grapes. So crushing grapes with the skins and leaving them in vessels will produce a wine of sorts. But probably not very good wine. Winemakers from ancient times, have kept cultures of better quality yeast.