How narrow is the "narrow way"?

[Dave L]

No, I'm trying to tell you that salvation just doesn't fall out of the sky onto some random person. A person has to accept or receive the free gift (John 1:12).

You have no verses whatsoever to prove anything you say, and I only keep showing verses to support my stance. You don't seem to base your idea off of anything biblical. You are almost saying that faith itself is a work - Abraham himself was fully persuaded (convinced) that God was able to perform that which he promised; he staggered not at unbelief. Did Abraham not choose to believe God and trust him? Or did the trust-fairy magically drop trust-dust on him and Abraham was then imputed righteousness?

I mean, really, your point falls apart. Just admit you're a calvinist already and you believe in predestination.

It still comes down this. If the gospel is law, it is not of grace. And law is always conditional.

 

[Call me Nic]

It still comes down this. If the gospel is law, it is not of grace. And law is always conditional.

So if faith isn't a conditional part of salvation, is every unbeliever then saved according to you?

 

[EmSw]

The verse in Ezekiel 18:21 speaks of a man repenting of his sins so that the Lord spare him in this life, as the Bible gives us an example of in Jonah; otherwise, you're going to have to find at least one example in the Bible of a man repenting of his sins to be given salvation (eternal life, not simply mercy in this life), which doesn't exist.

It is not speaking of 'this life'. Perhaps you need to read the passage carefully again.

Ezekiel 18:21
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

How is it you think this is talking about this life, when the wicked man who turns from his sins, and does what is lawful and right, will surely live, AND NOT DIE?

Are there people living today from Ezekiel's time? Or, have they all died, which in your theology makes God a liar. God said they shall not die; I believe Him, do you?

However, the Bible is clear that a person is saved by calling upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13, Acts of the Apostles 2:21, Joel 2:32).

Keeping in mind that God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6), his method of salvation wouldn't change. How do we know? Because we see men calling upon the name of the Lord way back in Genesis 4:26, and if you study the amount of years, Adam himself was still alive at this time: so men were calling upon the name of the Lord even since the first man was alive, which proves the same method for salvation: grace through faith in the Lord God. Just as Abraham was saved by faith (Romans 4:3), everyone before and since has been saved by faith. Noah found grace in God's eyes (Genesis 6:8), proving salvation by grace, howbeit it was both physical and spiritual salvation nonetheless, just as Enoch was saved and translated by God that he should not see death through faith (Genesis 5:22, Hebrews 11:5).

Is that all there is to salvation? Why did Jesus die and pay for our sins then, as a lot of people believe?

Ezekiel says the wicked were saved by turning from their sins and doing what is lawful and right. Nowhere is calling on the name of the Lord anywhere in Ezekiel 18. Unless of course, you are adding to what is written.

As you can see, the Bible obviously creates and testifies of a pattern in regards to salvation. It's obvious with any little study that God's method of salvation has always been purely grace through faith. It wouldn't be any different ever, because then the judgement of God would be a false balance, and a false balance is an abomination to the Lord (Proverbs 11:1), so because God's righteous and merciful, salvation has always been the same, so that all may be drink of the water of life freely (Revelation 22:17); coupled together with the law of God, with those who know the law, everyman is without excuse, for the law makes all guilty before God (Romans 3:19-20). Does all guilty before God sound like salvation to you?

What does the Light do to men? Does it not show man's guilt? Does it also show a man's works that they are of God.

Besides, you won't find anywhere in the OT, your assumption of being saved by grace through faith. But you will find that turning from sin and doing what is right and lawful will give man life, and he will not die.

Not to mention, if you claim salvation by the law in the Old Testament, how do you explain the salvation of men prior to the coming of the law? Because the Bible is clear that Abraham was saved by faith before circumcision, which was the seal of the covenant (Romans 4:10-12), making Abraham the heir of the world by faith and NOT according to the law (Romans 4:13).

Simple, it is by obedience to God's word. Have you not read that Abraham was obedient? And have you not read that Jesus is the Author of salvation to all men who obey Him?

Oh, and also: Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so it wouldn't make a difference if the saints believed on him before he came or after he came - it's still the same Savior since eternity.

The OT saints did not know of any Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So how could they believe in what they do not know?

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So tell me how they called on the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Then tell me how they believe whom they have not heard?

Verse 16 goes right back to obedience, which is stressed throughout the Bible.

 

[JohnC2]

"The narrow way" of earning your righteousness by your character and works is SO narrow and restrictive that in the history of creation - only ONE man has ever succeeded....

And he was cursed and hung on a tree..

His name is Jesus.

And when somebody else succeeds - I suppose they can tell Jesus to move over because there will be two....

For the entire rest of creation - we rely upon God's grace alone. We have no ability to force God to take us in.... We have no standing to declare our righteousness exceeds His and thus we are owed.

We lean soelly upon unmerited favor.

I believe I am a born again Christian. I came to a point in my life where The Holy Spirit moved upon me, I recognized it, I acknowledged it, I was convicted of my sin BY the Holy Spirit, I was sorry, I desired to get to know this being - this person - this Holy Spirit, He accepted me, and I was born again. I went to bed that night full of fire and having a heart for God I never thought would come into my life in my dizziest daydreams. I felt so cool the next day at school because I personally had met the one true GOD almighty! I wondered who else around me possibly had this rebirth, and I had a yearning for everyone I knew to come to this same knowledge, to experience God personally in that way which would change their lives forever.

Regardless of my own testimony, how many Christians are actually going to find the narrow way? I wonder myself, "Am I walking along the path that Jesus himself calls the 'narrow way that leads into eternal life'?"

What about lukewarmness? Jesus said, I would rather you be hot or cold, for if you are lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth.

What about intentional sin? If I step on your toe and then apologize, and you say it's okay, but then I do it again, and you forgive me again, and I continue to do it because I know I can get away with it, what of the "narrow way" then?

1 Corinthians 6

(NLT) 9Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

What about born again Christians who continue to walk in some of these ways? Obviously the actions listed above are not in accordance to the "narrow way". I will be honest. I am guilty of at least one of these wrong doings. I know I ought to repent of it, maybe I struggle with it and maybe I have not yet been corrected of it. But when I do it, I know I am committing a wrong doing that is not in line with the "narrow way" which has led me to start this thread to seek out how all of this comes together.

1 Corinthians 3 Paul writes...

(NLT) 10Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.

12Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

16Don’t you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? 17God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

In verse 15 above, it says we will saved, but we will be like someone escaping through the flames. Could this be the consequence to our sin even after we have been born again? Is the "narrow way" simply BEING born again? Or is the narrow way being born again AND building with a "material" that survives the fire so that we are rewarded, like in verses 13 and 14 above?

 

[Dave L]

So if faith isn't a conditional part of salvation, is every unbeliever then saved according to you?

No. We believe the gospel when we hear it. If we need to choose to believe, it is because we don't believe it.

 

[EmSw]

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8)

How did the OT saints call upon the Lamb Who was slain from the foundation of the world? How could they believe if they have not heard?

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

What do you say obeying the Gospel is in verse 16?

 

[Dave L]

How did the OT saints call upon the Lamb Who was slain from the foundation of the world? How could they believe if they have not heard?

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

What do you say obeying the Gospel is in verse 16?

The OT saints always had the gospel. But it was not as developed as we have today. The promise to Abraham was a more developed version of gospel than Abel or Job had.

 

[EmSw]

But you obey him through the heart (Romans 6:17), which is believing the word of truth (John 1:12, Ephesians 1:13) - this is what the Bible considers obeying the Gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8), because to obey the Gospel is to know God.

They who know not God did not obey the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21-23), for one knows the Lord by believing in him, and by accepting his righteousness and not your own (Philippians 3:9-10). The will of the Father is for us to believe on the one he has sent (John 6:40) and for those believing to be resurrected on the last day (John 6:39) according to our eternal, predestined inheritance (Ephesians 1:3-14, Romans 8:29) of immorality and incorruption (1 Corinthians 15:53) by the will of God.

Actually, the ones who do not keep His commandments are those who do not know Him.

1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

His commandments are what they did not obey.

Even Jesus this to say about those who keep His commandments -

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus says it is those who have and keep His commandments, love Him, and those who love Him will be loved of the Father, AND WILL MANIFEST HIMSELF TO THEM. Jesus will never be known until He manifests Himself. And He manifests Himself to those who love Him through having and keeping His commandments.

 

[EmSw]

The OT saints always had the gospel. But it was not as developed as we have today. The promise to Abraham was a more developed version of gospel than Abel or Job had.

Making more stuff up, huh? Jesus' Gospel was the Gospel of the Kingdom. What Jesus gave us was fully developed, complete, and not lacking anything. Jesus never gave us half truths.

 

[Call me Nic]

It is not speaking of 'this life'. Perhaps you need to read the passage carefully again.

Ezekiel 18:21
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

How is it you think this is talking about this life, when the wicked man who turns from his sins, and does what is lawful and right, will surely live, AND NOT DIE?

Are there people living today from Ezekiel's time? Or, have they all died, which in your theology makes God a liar. God said they shall not die; I believe Him, do you?

I have provided you a biblical example of what the prophet Ezekiel described in the verse from the book of Jonah, yet you have not provided me one example of a man that was given eternal life by repenting from his sin. Nevertheless, God considers repenting from evil or turning from sins to be works according to Jonah 3:10. The Bible is clear we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5).

Oh, and I show you with scriptural comparison how the Bible doesn't contradict itself in this yet when the Bible says that calling upon the name of the Lord to be saved is what must happen for salvation, you don't believe him. You are the one that is really calling God a liar, because you don't believe this (Titus 1:2) and you don't believe this (Malachi 3:6) and you don't believe this (Romans 10:13, Genesis 4:26).

If we are to take what you say as truth, being saved by the law contradicts this (Galatians 2:16) and this (Romans 3:19-20). Either you don't believe Paul's words (which breaks CF rules) or you don't believe the Bible is perfectly inerrant, which challenges the perfection of God (Psalm 18:30) because all scripture is God-inspired (2 Timothy 3:16).

Is that all there is to salvation? Why did Jesus die and pay for our sins then, as a lot of people believe?

Ezekiel says the wicked were saved by turning from their sins and doing what is lawful and right. Nowhere is calling on the name of the Lord anywhere in Ezekiel 18. Unless of course, you are adding to what is written.

1.) If the verse says you must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, then you must call upon the name of the Lord. When you call upon the name of the Lord, you do so out of faith (obviously) and place your trust in Christ alone, for he is the only way in to heaven (John 14:6).

2). Ezekiel didn't mention calling upon the name of the Lord... because Ezekiel is not talking about salvation here... duh! Otherwise, Ezekiel would be contradicting Christ's own words (John 3:16-18). "Repenting from sins" is not the same as "Believe on Christ," by the way, and I challenge you to prove that to me from the Bible.

What does the Light do to men? Does it not show man's guilt? Does it also show a man's works that they are of God.

Besides, you won't find anywhere in the OT, your assumption of being saved by grace through faith. But you will find that turning from sin and doing what is right and lawful will give man life, and he will not die.

Paul himself says that Abraham was saved by faith in the book of Romans which is concrete proof that the OT saints were saved by faith through grace. James says that Abraham's faith was vindicated (proven true) by his works before men.

Paul argues that Abraham was justified before God by faith.
James argues that Abraham was justified before men by works.

Simple, it is by obedience to God's word. Have you not read that Abraham was obedient? And have you not read that Jesus is the Author of salvation to all men who obey Him?

Obeying the gospel is the same as knowing Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8) and you know Christ through faith (Philippians 3:8-10).

The OT saints did not know of any Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So how could they believe in what they do not know?

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So tell me how they called on the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Then tell me how they believe whom they have not heard?

Verse 16 goes right back to obedience, which is stressed throughout the Bible.

1. How was Abraham justified by faith if he knew not of the Lord Jesus Christ? Because Christ is the Lord God, and Abraham believed God, and when Abraham believed God, he believed Christ.

2. Romans 10:18 "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Paul answers your question directly, they've heard. Romans 1:20-21 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." This scripture shows that from the creation of the world, the created have known about the power of God, yet did not know him through faith (because they did not obey him by believing him (Romans 10:14-16).

 

[DaveM]

But many are misled thinking their choice to believe with the mind led to the faith in their heart. The biblical faith that preceded it

Let us not forget we do have responsibility to seek God as it is written

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Matthew 7:7-8 E
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

 

[Call me Nic]

Actually, the ones who do not keep His commandments are those who do not know Him.

1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

His commandments are what they did not obey.

Even Jesus this to say about those who keep His commandments -

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus says it is those who have and keep His commandments, love Him, and those who love Him will be loved of the Father, AND WILL MANIFEST HIMSELF TO THEM. Jesus will never be known until He manifests Himself. And He manifests Himself to those who love Him through having and keeping His commandments.

And what is his commandment?

1 John 3:23 "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

We know that the first clause is unto salvation because of these verses (John 3:16, Acts of the Apostles 2:21, Acts of the Apostles 16:31, Romans 10:9-13, Mark 1:15).

The second is a commandment to not hate one's brother in the faith, but is not a condition to salvation, otherwise it would be contradictory to John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9-10.

 

[narrowgateevangelist]

Matthew 20: 1. For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4. And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 5. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 6. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 7. They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 8. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12. Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14. Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16. So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. -

Salvation is the penny in this parable. It's substance is by grace through faith.

 

[Call me Nic]

If we need to choose to believe, it is because we don't believe it.

That doesn't make any sense. So man doesn't have free will?

 

[faroukfarouk]

by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2.8 .

 

[Gr8Grace]

No. We believe the gospel when we hear it. If we need to choose to believe, it is because we don't believe it.

There is no merit in believing in The Lord Jesus Christ for ones salvation. The merit is in the object of our faith. He saves us the MOMENT we place all of our trust in Him. Acts 16:31.

Who can boast about choosing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Not one person. Because the merit is in the Savior not the choice to believe. Anyone can believe and be saved, it would be foolish to boast about believing...................there is no merit in believing, anyone can believe. But there is a WHOLE lot of merit in the Lord Jesus Christ who saves WHOEVER believes. John 3:16.

In all honesty sir, you are putting merit in your particular 'special' kind of believing. Believing is akin to eating and drinking. There is no merit in eating or drinking, anyone can do it.........the merit is in the food and drink.

Now those who think salvation can be lost........have made the switch to putting the merit in their faith and taken the merit away from Christ.

 

[Dave L]

There is no merit in believing in The Lord Jesus Christ for ones salvation. The merit is in the object of our faith. He saves us the MOMENT we place all of our trust in Him. Acts 16:31.

Who can boast about choosing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Not one person. Because the merit is in the Savior not the choice to believe. Anyone can believe and be saved, it would be foolish to boast about believing...................there is no merit in believing, anyone can believe. But there is a WHOLE lot of merit in the Lord Jesus Christ who saves WHOEVER believes. John 3:16.

In all honesty sir, you are putting merit in your particular 'special' kind of believing. Believing is akin to eating and drinking. There is no merit in eating or drinking, anyone can do it.........the merit is in the food and drink.

Now those who think salvation can be lost........have made the switch to putting the merit in their faith and taken the merit away from Christ.

If salvation is conditional, it is not grace, it is a law for the self-righteous who think they can choose salvation. Do you choose to believe the chair you are sitting in is there? Of course not. And so it is with the gospel. It hits people in the heart turning them into believers while they listen.

 

[Dave L]

Let us not forget we do have responsibility to seek God as it is written

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Matthew 7:7-8 E
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

But unless Christ first reveals himself to us, we always fabricate idols bearing his name.

 

[Dave L]

Making more stuff up, huh? Jesus' Gospel was the Gospel of the Kingdom. What Jesus gave us was fully developed, complete, and not lacking anything. Jesus never gave us half truths.

Yes, but you add to it making salvation conditional. This is nothing more than a false gospel for the self-righteous.

 

[Call me Nic]

If salvation is conditional, it is not grace, it is a law for the self-righteous who think they can choose salvation. Do you choose to believe the chair you are sitting in is there? Of course not. And so it is with the gospel. It hits people in the heart turning them into believers while they listen.

How can I choose to believe my chair is here beneath me? That's called knowledge, friend - there's a difference between holding knowledge and holding faith.

Knowledge = certainty based upon evidence/observation that something is there
Faith = hope or trust based upon testimony that something is there

I can't choose to hold knowledge of something (like if I know I'm sitting on my chair, I can't just decide not to know that), but I can choose to believe something I'm not certain about - I believe my chair was made in china for example.

The same is with us Christians - we don't know that God sent his Son to die for us and that we're saved if we believe, we just choose to believe the testimony given us that that is the truth. If we knew it, we wouldn't be able to unknow it, because knowledge isn't a choice. If we believe it, we could hypothetically unbelieve it, because belief is a choice.

I think you've way over thought this.