How narrow is the "narrow way"?

[Dave L]

First off: I am not “people”, but an individual who has thought. Studied and discussed this with lots of sincere Christians.

Again it is not all “people” who see a condition turning the Gospel to some “law”, since you give the condition of “faith” (as you say above “Whoever believes this has eternal life”.)

You than turn around and say: “No act of the will is involved”, So are they saved against their own will?

There are lots of different teachings done by “evangelists” please do not generalize or group them all together. Trusting the Love of the Creator of the Universe is something the lowliest mature adult on earth can easily do (it is not work), so there cannot be any pride in trusting in God with just the hope of being offered some underserved charity.

People do not have to feel “They are saving themselves”, just because they gave up and surrendered.

If you feel: “accepting God’s charity is something humans cannot do”, then you solved the problem people have with accepting pure sacrificial charity, since it cannot be done, they did not do it.

I find people have a very hard time accepting pure charity (which is not a work) and will look to get around humbling themselves to that point of accepting charity, but you do not run into that problem with your belief, but is that the message your trying to get across?

Grace is unconditional. If you make it conditional, you turn it into law and works.

 

[DaveM]

God did not intend to save all

please provide scripture to back that up because it is written

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

 

[Dave L]

Seems to me you don't have a Gospel? It seems you have a "poof" and your saved thingy going.

The Gospel is Good news(Christ on the Cross for us) to a lost and dying world. And your theology seems to say that the lost and dying can't respond.

Please show us how personally believing in Christ is meritorious. Faith is confidence in the authority and veracity of another(The Lord Jesus Christ.)

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23)

Many hear the gospel. Some walk the other way, others believe and repent of their sins. The difference is in the new birth that happens when some and not others hear the gospel.

 

[Dave L]

Please back that up with scripture

Because the bible tells us God reveals himself to everyone

Ephesians 3:9
And to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

“When Jesus came to the area of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They answered, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!” (Matthew 16:13–17)

 

[Dave L]

Scriptures refute this idea.

Acts 16:31 along with many others have 'believe' in the active voice. This is us making an active personal ,volitional choice for the Lord Jesus Christ. Not to mention that growing in the Lord requires discipline, volition and MANY choices.

But you are making it a condition for salvation = works. When it is a characteristic of those whom God saves. You are not saved because you believe. You believe because God saved you. You could not believe with biblical faith had he not.

 

[Dave L]

please provide scripture to back that up because it is written

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

“Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:8–9)

God was certainly willing the Pharisees perished.

““He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn to me, and I would heal them.”” (John 12:40)

 

[Dave L]

So essentially you're saying that a person that truly believes did not choose to believe? What about a person that chooses not to believe? By your logic, he can believe anyway, since there is no choice in the matter.

If you experience something, do you need to choose to believe you experienced it? People who believe the gospel experience it in their hearts and cannot help but believe. Those who hear it with their flesh don't know whether to believe or not. So they weigh all the pluses and minuses and then decide. This in similar to baptismal regeneration used by the Catholics and Lutherans. Ony with most Evangelicals it is "Decisional Regeneration" and salvation by works.

 

[Dave L]

I don't accept this at all.

John 20:24-29 "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. (LOOK HERE, THE CHOICE TO NOT BELIEVE, HMM INTERESTING). And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. (LOOK HERE, THE COMMAND TO BELIEVE... ALMOST LIKE ITS A CHOICE, HMM INTERESTING, STRAIGHT FROM JESUS' MOUTH). And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed (the reason why Thomas chose to believe): blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (Us who have not seen him but have chosen to believe)."

It still comes down to being born again before you can have biblical faith. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Many believed in Jesus by sight and not by faith. Paul was one of them while experiencing Christ on the road to Damascus. He believed just as Thomas, by sight. But we know Christ sent Ananias to heal and administer the Holy Spirit to Paul. Did Thomas show evidence of the New Birth after that? He was among those filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. So-yes.

But many saw the miracles and did not believe.

 

[Gr8Grace]

But you are making it a condition for salvation = works. When it is a characteristic of those whom God saves. You are not saved because you believe. You believe because God saved you. You could not believe with biblical faith had he not.

Scripture refutes this idea. The Lord Jesus requires whosoever to believe on Him for their salvation. Acts 16:31: John 3:16

Eph 1:13~~New International Version
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[Dave L]

Scripture refutes this idea. The Lord Jesus requires whosoever to believe on Him for their salvation. Acts 16:31: John 3:16

Eph 1:13~~New International Version
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

You can read these passages two ways. The Works way making belief a condition for salvation. Or you can read them the Grace way, making them a characteristic of all whom God saves.

"Whoever believes will be saved" You believe because God saved you.

Or God only saves those who save themselves. In this case, those who choose to believe.

 

[Gr8Grace]

You can read these passages two ways. The Works way making belief a condition for salvation. Or you can read them the Grace way, making them a characteristic of all whom God saves.

"Whoever believes will be saved" You believe because God saved you.

Or God only saves those who save themselves. In this case, those who choose to believe.

You still have not addressed how having faith in Christ has any merit in and of itself. And is considered a meritorious work.

The merit is in Christ, not believing in Him. He does the saving, not believing.

This is why we absolutely, positively cannot lose salvation. Because the merit is in Christ the Savior......not our mustard seed of faith.

John 10:28
Romans 8:38-39

 

[bling]

Grace is unconditional. If you make it conditional, you turn it into law and works.

Grace is extended to everyone since God is Love so there is no condition for grace. As you seem to be saying:it takes a saving faith to accept the free gift of God's grace found in forgiveness.

 

[joshlete]

The problem is that Grace is unconditional. It is not grace if we must respond to engage it. It becomes works. God did not intend to save all. Examples are Noah being saved by Grace while the entire world perished in the flood. The Jews of whom God saved a remnant while the rest along with the whole world perished. Even today, most perish with only few saved.

Grace says You believe because God saved you. Works says God saved you because you chose to believe.

And the end result is with Grace your faith is in Christ. With works your faith is in your faith.

Repeating what you said a hundred times isn't the best arguement, I have to say. You're just copying and pasting your other posts. You just completely ignored my description, so I'm starting to assume you're just a troll. If that's the case, then that's fine. Everyone reading will just be more convinced you're wrong.

So I'm going to use my same argument and say that you're saying God is forcing people to believe against their will. And that He only chooses some people to be saved, and doesn't care about others. You're walking on dangerous waters, my friend.

 

[Dave L]

Repeating what you said a hundred times isn't the best arguement, I have to say. You're just copying and pasting your other posts. You just completely ignored my description, so I'm starting to assume you're just a troll. If that's the case, then that's fine. Everyone reading will just be more convinced you're wrong.

So I'm going to use my same argument and say that you're saying God is forcing people to believe against their will. And that He only chooses some people to be saved, and doesn't care about others. You're walking on dangerous waters, my friend.

The truth does not change. You are denying God's grace in salvation turning the gospel into a system of works for the self-righteous.

 

[Dave L]

Grace is extended to everyone since God is Love so there is no condition for grace. As you seem to be saying:it takes a saving faith to accept the free gift of God's grace found in forgiveness.

This is not true. If it was there would have bee no flood. No slaughter of the Canaanites, the whole world would have received his word, not just Israel.

 

[Dave L]

You still have not addressed how having faith in Christ has any merit in and of itself. And is considered a meritorious work.

The merit is in Christ, not believing in Him. He does the saving, not believing.

This is why we absolutely, positively cannot lose salvation. Because the merit is in Christ the Savior......not our mustard seed of faith.

John 10:28
Romans 8:38-39

If faith is a condition you must decide to meet, it is works and not grace. If you just happen to believe in Christ when you hear about him, it is because God saved you and gave you the new birth.

 

[joshlete]

The truth does not change. You are denying God's grace in salvation turning the gospel into a system of works for the self-righteous.

If that's the case, then may God convince me otherwise because you're definitely not convincing me. Be very careful you're not on the wrong side of the truth. Because if you're wrong, you don't know who your God is. Because your God forces people to believe in Him, devoid of anyone's free will. Which we clearly have.

 

[Dave L]

If that's the case, then may God convince me otherwise because you're definitely not convincing me. Be very careful you're not on the wrong side of the truth. Because if you're wrong, you don't know who your God is. Because your God forces people to believe in Him, devoid of anyone's free will. Which we clearly have.

People are bound by sin and their will is not free. When God imparts the new birth we become free. So if you think your decision saved you, you could not believe enough to decide for Christ unless God first imparted the new birth to you. But, you were already saved or you would not have made a decision.

 

[joshlete]

People are bound by sin and their will is not free. When God imparts the new birth we become free. So if you think your decision saved you, you could not believe enough to decide for Christ unless God first imparted the new birth to you. But, you were already saved or you would not have made a decision.

Care to back that up theology up with scripture? Because the way I see it, everyone is given free access to salvation. Scripture says it is God who gives everyone the insight, or understanding, of salvation. We are then given the choice to believe.

My question to you is this. If God wants everyone to be saved, why doesn't He force everyone to believe? since by your definition, we can't choose to believe on our own. Does God not want everyone to believe and be saved?

 

[EmSw]

That commandment is given to Christians already saved. This is basically explains how a Christian should be, not how to be saved. There are plenty of verses explaining how to be saved, and the condition is to believe on the One who God had sent. If loving your neighbor is part of receiving salvation, then that means we must have works to be saved. And the Bible absolutely 100% says salvation is not produced by ANY works. Those verses you are quoting is simply explaining what a saved person will look like. A person who has received the Holy Spirit and having God dwelling within us, will have conviction when the person hates his brother, which will cause the person to repent.

Long story short, a saved person will follow the commandment to love his brother and neighbor, while he that is in darkness (not saved) will not love his brother. This is the definition of faith without works is dead. Dead faith is faith outside of salvation.

A person who does not love the brethren is a child of the devil and does not have eternal life. How is a child of the devil who does not have eternal life saved?