How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

[LittleLambofJesus]

*<snip>?
My brethren in the &#8220;hope of Israel&#8221;!
So I voted &#8220;fully fulfilled&#8221; of course
Blessings upon the Whole House of Israel!

Thank you for both posting and voting

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thank you for the link lloj
This thread will divide the sheep from the goats lol!

Matthew 24 is a twin of Revelations as I read it.
All the elements of destroying that wicked Jerusalem harlot are present.
All the elements of saving men by the Gospel sent into all the world are present.
Jesus said that what He was saying was going to "shortly come to pass".
And it did.

Jesus loved his Wife, the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem pastored by James. His prophecy was for them. Not for some future end time magic act.

Jesus’ foremost concern in warning His followers was that the first century Jerusalem Church would be delivered safely from the midst of that old covenant Jerusalem Jewish harlot.
He was going to burn her to the ground for her whoredoms as promised. He had to see to His Wife’s safety first. The vengeance of Jesus was promise to be released upon that antichrist Pharisee plagued metropolis of spiritual filth and pollution. Burning her up is the long heralded days of vengeance promised, fulfilled when Titus burnt the city to the ground in AD 70.

Interspersed throughout Matt 24 are the same terms used in Revelations concerning salvation as well.
The Gospel message, preached by the true Israel Wife of God, was now being sent out into all nations to call those who were scattered “far off”. Jesus’ gospel call, preached by His saints sent into the four corners of the world, have been redeeming Israel for the last 2000 years as she is “called out” (“ekklesia”/church/spiritual Israel/New Jerusalem etc) Called out from the nations/gentiles.

This began at Pentecost of course, a “kind of first fruits” in the special sending of the apostles and their powerful gifts of the Holy Spirit. But the body of fulfillment is upon that Jerusalem church pastured by James, which was “released” out from that wicked city destined for immolation.

The Jewish Church saved out of Jerusalem’s ashes…
The Israelites saved from amongst the gentiles where they had been scattered…
All brought together as One in the House of Israel, the New Covenant Bride of Christ! Fulfilling Jer 31:31-34 and all the rest of the prophets.
My brethren in the “hope of Israel”!

So I voted “fully fulfilled” of course

Blessings upon the Whole House of Israel!

Thank you for both posting and voting

 

[Soulgazer]

I voted "Other", as this version of Matthew's Gospel was written after the fall of Jerusalem. It's kind of cheating.

 

[lookingglass]

I believe you and are on the same page concerning your post. You have gleaned the message of matthew 24 as I have.
Later, Mike

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I voted "Other", as this version of Matthew's Gospel was written after the fall of Jerusalem. It's kind of cheating.

Thank you for posting.
I haven't heard that of that before.
Got any sources for to back up that presumption? Thanks

 

[Soulgazer]

Gospel of Matthew

 

[lookingglass]

Thanks for your reply. Concerning your post. I believe one needs to divide chapter 24 of Matthew&#8217;s gospel to see that there are in fact two messages. One deals exclusively with the immediate future and the other about a futuristic global time just at the return of Christ. It is interesting to see this. Many people don't stop to see this difference and so miss the two scenarios. Things that are evident will pop up in the text like, Two men will be sleeping one will be taken the other left and two people will be working in a field one will be taken the other left. The implication is global as some people are asleep while in some other part of the world some are working. The former scenario involves the prediction of sudden destruction coming soon and the warning to not go back to your houses and get your clothes but to run into the wilderness for this time will be unusually terrible and has not since the beginning of the world nor will ever be after this a time of God pouring out his wrath. Remember the story Jesus told about the vineyard and how the servants persecuted those who God sent. He finally sent his son and they killed him. Jesus said of this , What do you think my father will do to those wicked servants. The text says God will send his armies against them and so Jerusalem fell to the Roman armies in 70ad. See Luke 20:9-16
There is more to this but you can read the text yourself to see the different scenarios.
There is a book that illustrates this in detail. It was written by an historian who lived at the time and in fact witnessed this event. His name is Josephus and if you have not already read it you might find it an interesting read. It&#8217;s called , The Fall of Jerusalem.
One interesting thing that I find in reading this chapter is that many tend to misinterpret because that fail to use the proper hermenutic. The following deals with hyperbole. MATTHEW 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This preaching is an old testament style concerning Judgement and/or an enlargement of speech saying that I am about to pour out my wrath and so he is referring to the immediate future of that generation. It is important to understand this when reading the text so you can follow what Christ is expounding on. This is one example where laymen and scholars have erred in understanding this text and so have read this phrase as a futuristic event concerning the second coming.
Later, Mike

 

[Soulgazer]

This is one example where laymen and scholars have erred in understanding this text and so have read this phrase as a futuristic event concerning the second coming.
Later, Mike

It's important to remember that from the Perspective of the Jewish Christian, the destruction of Jerusalem was the end of the world.

Not only was Jerusalem destroyed, but the very thing that made it Unique----the Oral Torah, for which the written Torah was but a mnemonic device.

Acolytes had to study and memorize, and it took decades to become a priest. The Written Torah represented the Letter of the Law, and the Oral Torah represented the Spirit, or proper interpretation of what was written, as what was written was not always what was meant.

It must have been earth shattering, as surviving families were split up and sold into slavery. And not just Jerusalem, but all of Israel. It was a holocaust that percentage wise was even greater than the Nazi's. People watched people they knew die in rivers of blood, and those that didn't die wished that they had.

A lot of post-Jerusalem Christian scripture tried to write in explanations as to why God would do this to his chosen people, as when Jesus cursed the fig tree, or as in Thomas, a vine planted apart from the Father would be uprooted. And not just Christian, The Mandaen also.

The closest actual undeniably pre-cataclysmic prophesy was done by Paul, when he said that Christians would now be the only, or God's, Jerusalem, and the city would be subject to slavery.

To give you an idea of the total destruction.... The Temple would have covered four modern city blocks. The Romans systematically disassembled it, block by block. Can you imagine how this horrified a people who quite literally believed that their god lived in that temple? Even Jewish Christians, would have felt the horror, things that people have believed since childhood are never really lost. How abandoned they must have felt.

 

[Senecharnix]

The calamities mentioned in Matthew 24 are going to happen again. The next time that they do so, however, they will lead to te extinction of Judaism. The only Jews who are going to escape death or something worse will be those who embrace Yeshua as the Messiah and flee to the wilderness of Jordan.

 

[lookingglass]

How terrible it is to fall into the hands of an angry God. The rejection of the messiah as portrayed in Isaiah 61 by those first century Hebrews was the final nail in their coffin. Throughout history their refusal to hear the prophets was a continual characteristic of this chosen nation. Resistance to the working of the Spirit of God brought this severe Judgment.
You can here this in Christ&#8217;s grieving words when he said, Matthew 23:37-39 (New International Version, ©2011)
37 &#8220;Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, &#8216;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
I am sure you are right about the suffering that came about. I suppose the final example of the Jewish resistance to Rome could be seen in their desperation at Massada. Here as elsewhere the Jews were alone against their enemies. Unfortunately the actions of the Jewish hierarchy cause everyone to suffer including Christian converts who found it necessary to developed an apocalyptic mindset to survive. The symbol of the fish was only one example of how the early church avoided the continual persecutions.
It is not hard to see how the destruction of the Temple came about. The rejection of the Hebrews as a chosen nation was inevitable when you look at their history. Yes they were chosen to bring about the linage of the Messiah and God would have used them as his special vehicle to reveal His son to the world. However, when they rejected the Messiah God was forced to create a new chosen nation called the Church. The Jews lost their special place with God and have been rejected. However, God is able to regraft them into his vineyard if they accept the covenant He provides through his son.
Otherwise he has nothing to do with them and salvation history through the Jews ended at the death of Christ.
The idea that the Jews still have a special place in salvation history is another error transposed by improper interpretation by many Christians. They would have us believe that there still remains the rebuilding of the temple which was destroyed in 70 ad. This only goes to show how people continue to view the choseness of Israel as nepotistic in nature. God chose Israel as a vehicle with his promise to Abraham. This vehicle was for use for specific purposes that would portray God&#8217;s revelation of himself to the world by bringing about his final plan of salvation by Grace through His son. See Hebrew chapter 1.
When one considers the rebuilding of the Temple as a necessary ingredient in the mix before the return of Christ for his church then something is awry. This would mean that the old system of animal sacrifice would once again be reinstated. This then would create another covenant or the reintroduction of the older covenant which God had destroyed in 70ad. The idea that this could happen is ridiculous! Christ is our new Temple through which we have total access to God. Christ is the end result of God's work by the breaking of the veil in the old temple He brings together as one both Jews and Gentiles.
Christ is God's final message to the world. No more is left to be said. God ended his speaking to the world through men and ordinances as is stated in Hebrews chapter one.
Later

 

[Soulgazer]

Christ is God's final message to the world. No more is left to be said. God ended his speaking to the world through men and ordinances as is stated in Hebrews chapter one.
Later

I also thought of Masada. People don't realize how thorough the devastation was.

When we read Paul, we see that Paul refused to teach Judaism among the gentiles...in fact he wrote that he would appear to a "Greek as a Greek". I had always taken this to mean that he would use the Greeks own religious prophesies to introduce Christ. I was fascinated when I later found some Greek Christian schools had indeed grafted the Christ story into their belief system.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The calamities mentioned in Matthew 24 are going to happen again. The next time that they do so, however, they will lead to te extinction of Judaism. The only Jews who are going to escape death or something worse will be those who embrace Yeshua as the Messiah and flee to the wilderness of Jordan.

Judaism was pretty much made "extinct" with the destruction of the Temple/Sanctuary and Priesthood [especially concerning the Passover sacrifice, where the High Priest entered the Sanctuary]
Thanks for posting

http://www.christianforums.com/t7276015/
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

Hebrews 7:12 For being translated the Priesthood, out of necessity also, of Law a translation is becoming,

Reve 5: 10 And Thou make them to the God of us Kings and Priests and they shall be reigning upon the land

 

[lookingglass]

Pastor, Is your persuasion Gnostic? If so how do you view the Nicene Creed?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Pastor, Is your persuasion Gnostic? If so how do you view the Nicene Creed?

Who is Pastor?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7448114-9/#post54283622

 

[visionary]

I also thought of Masada. People don't realize how thorough the devastation was.

When we read Paul, we see that Paul refused to teach Judaism among the gentiles...in fact he wrote that he would appear to a "Greek as a Greek". I had always taken this to mean that he would use the Greeks own religious prophesies to introduce Christ. I was fascinated when I later found some Greek Christian schools had indeed grafted the Christ story into their belief system.

WHen you pick up a bible that has references.. you will find Paul's writtings are being referenced back to OT.. and what you might consider to be Judaism...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

WHen you pick up a bible that has references.. you will find Paul's writtings are being referenced back to OT.. and what you might consider to be Judaism...

So does John in Revelation

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That&#8217;s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation. That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited.
How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

Matthew 24:31 and He shall be sending His Messengers with a trumpet/salpiggoV <4536> sound, great, and they shall be upon-together-gathering the out-called-ones of Him out of the four winds, from extremities of heavens till the extremities of them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of chief-messenger, and in a trumpet of God, shall be descending from heaven, and the dead-ones in Christ shall be ressurecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) first,

Revelation 8:6 And the seven Messengers having the seven trumpets make ready themselves, that they should be trumpeting/salpizein <4537> (5721)
[Joshua 6:4/Matt 24:31]

Joshua 6:4 And seven Priests shall bear the seven trumpets/07782 showphar of the jubilees/03104 yowbel before the ark,
and in day the seventh, ye shall compass the city seven of times, and the Priests shall blow in trumpets .

 

[Soulgazer]

Pastor, Is your persuasion Gnostic? If so how do you view the Nicene Creed?

Yes, I am Gnostic; We don't usually view it as antithetical, if it is interpreted the way we interpret it.


Quote
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen

.As gnostics we believe in One God, the Almighty. Though the Father did not directly create the universe, the demiguere did using Sophia, who's power comes from God.


Quote
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.


All of this is still true. Those who have seen the Light cannot deny this begetting. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. Now We make a distiction between God and True God. As Christian Gnostics, our initiator is the Lord, Jesus Christ.
Quote


Through him all things were made.



Without the Christ spirit can we be spiritually alive? Through him, confirms that He gave the power to make all things.

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For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

Our salvation is freedom from sin, and able to be once again in tune with the "image" that is within us all.

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For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.


All true, his earthly body.

Quote
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Take it or leave it. It still doesn't deny the gnostic experience and that Christ is part of God.

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He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

He is the standard for the spiritually living and dead. He's judging just that, those that have gnosis and those that don't.

Quote
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

The Holy Spirit comes proceeds from the Father and the Son. It is part of the divine emanations so it should be worshiped because it is of the same substance as God and Christ. Though We see the Holy Spirit as feminine, this I think is just an issue of wording.
Quote
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

All Christians are part of the universal Church and all people that have seen the Light are part of the apostolic Church

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We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
There is a baptism for the forgiveness of our separation from God. Once we know God, we are forgiven of our ignorance of God.

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We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

The Dead are the spiritually dead, and when they have Gnosis, this is the resurrection unto Life eternal.

 

[Soulgazer]

WHen you pick up a bible that has references.. you will find Paul's writtings are being referenced back to OT.. and what you might consider to be Judaism...

When Paul wrote, he usually wrote to those that had things given to them he didn't want them to have----and then he explained in Judaic terms, to counterbalance the Judaic terms; Plus there are later interpolations added into his letters, both by the Marcionites, and then by the Catholic to counter the Marcionite. (it was common practice to add---nobody subtracted) http://www.gnosis.org/library/marcion/Galatian.htm

If you really read his letter to the galatians, you can see just what I'm talking about. Bear this in mind while reading; Paul would not teach Judaism just to unteach it. Plus his converts already had a firm vision of their own version of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

<snip>
If you really read his letter to the galatians, you can see just what I'm talking about. Bear this in mind while reading; Paul would not teach Judaism just to unteach it. Plus his converts already had a firm vision of their own version of God.

I have the book of Galatians translated from the major greek texts over here is thou or others are intersted

http://www.christianforums.com/t7411599-29/#post53287227
Book of Galatian verse by verse

 

[lookingglass]

You stated in your document the following:
As Gnostics we believe in One God, the Almighty. Though the Father did not directly create the universe, the demiurge did using Sophia, who's power comes from God.

How do you reconcile this statement with the genesis account where it states that God created the heavens and the earth?

Where is it stated in the Hebrew Bible that God did not create the earth but some demiurge did?

How do you warrant that knowledge is a stepping stone to knowing God. This would do away with the scripture that states , For by grace are you saved through the gospel not of yourselves, It is a gift from God. Not of works lest you might boast that your new found knowledge has enlightened you!

What about this statement, Now We make a distinction between God and True God. As Christian Gnostics, our initiator is the Lord, Jesus Christ.
Who is God and what is this distinction? Is not Jesus the only true God?&#8221; Unto which of the angels did God say today have I begotten you &#8230; But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Or Have you forgotten what it written about Jesus in
1 Corinthians 2:8 If they had, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of glory. ... they would not have put him to death; see the note on Acts 3:17 Do you understand the meaning of the Lord of Glory. Let me enlighten you . It means God in the flesh.
King James Bible&#8232; And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

What is this statement,
Our salvation is freedom from sin, and able to be once again in tune with the "image" that is within us all.
This is biblically untenable and unwarranted. Where does it state that salvation has anything to do with a tuning in to an image within as you say? What is in us all is that all we like sheep have gone astray and we need to return to the bishop of our souls. Salvation is strictly election through faith. It is not a recognition as you say to an image that is inherent in us. This is heresy!
You say, Take it or leave it. It still doesn't deny the Gnostic experience and that Christ is part of God.
Jesus is god incarnate not some part as you say of God. You deny the new testament and the old testament facts that Jesus is fully divine!
You think you can hide behind some form of knowledge and deny the power of God.
2 timothy 3:5 states that these heretics have a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

But all of this is moot isn&#8217;t it? You don&#8217;t consider the cannon of the bible as held by Christians. You rather hold to those forgeries which take away from the authentic documents which true believers understand as being the works of the original witnesses of Jesus. You rather believe in man made versions which are inspired by Satan himself. Those extra biblical documents were the works of your predecessors who brought about those daming heresies during the first three centuries and who turned the truth of the glorious gospel into a lie. Plato himself would be proud of your accomplishments as you follow not the true gospel but rather his Greek ideals and false teachings.