How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

PreteristView said:

I have recently discovered more Scriptural evidence that Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled. Even references to Revelation being in the New Testament accounts, making the dating of Revelation prior to 95 A.D.

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Hello . This is the first I've heard of Revelation being alluded to in other parts of the New Testament, and I'd be very grateful if you'd show me such references. It's also worth bearing in mind that the dates of the Gospels themselves are not set-in-stone, so even if these references do exist as claimed, they're hardly a watertight argument for Preterism.

Sorry to derail the thread.

Der Alter said:

I don't know I haven't studied it enough to form an opinion.

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Thank you.
Is there some reason that you have for not stuyding it more? Just curious

LittleLambofJesus said:

Thank you.
Is there some reason that you have for not stuyding it more? Just curious

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Well it is not a requirement for salvation so it is not high on my list. Sorta like the "Tribulation." I am a pan-Millenialist. It will all pan out in the end.

Der Alter said:

Well it is not a requirement for salvation so it is not high on my list. Sorta like the "Tribulation." I am a pan-Millenialist. It will all pan out in the end.

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Nuttin wrong wit dat!

Well it is not a requirement for salvation so it is not high on my list. Sorta like the "Tribulation." I am a pan-Millenialist. It will all pan out in the end.

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It will pan out in the end, Jehovah's purpose will be done, there is no other possibility. In Noah's' time all the people were wiped out except Noah and his family. The last days are compared to Noah's day, and few then will survive also. So it will pan out, it's just that, who will it pan out for?

I think you are on the right track about how much is fulfilled. If you break matt up the first half is already fulfill the latter half is in the process of being fulfilled. One note on the latter half is the only thing left is the return of Christ. There is nothing stopping God at this point except His own thinking on when the fulness of the gentiles is fulfilled.

marlowe007 said:

Hello . This is the first I've heard of Revelation being alluded to in other parts of the New Testament, and I'd be very grateful if you'd show me such references. It's also worth bearing in mind that the dates of the Gospels themselves are not set-in-stone, so even if these references do exist as claimed, they're hardly a watertight argument for Preterism.

Sorry to derail the thread.

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It is actually getting us back on track.
I have to go out now. but will get back to this.

Matthew 24:3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.

Matthew24:23 “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
So from the signs on the earth that we see, we will know that Jesus is in the heavens.
When Jesus ascended into heaven, according to the record, “a cloud caught him up from their vision.” (Ac 1:9) The disciples did not see Jesus riding away on a cloud, but rather, the cloud obscured their vision of him. This helps us to understand Jesus’ words concerning his presence: “They will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory,” and Revelation’s statement: “He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.” (Lu 21:27; Mt 24:30; Re 1:7) In past cases clouds represented invisible presence; but observers could “see” the meaning with their mental “eyes.” In this case the physical occurrences that are visible would cause the one looking to “see” or realize that Christ is invisibly present.—See also Mt 24; Mr 13; Re 14:14.


Matthew 24:7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name.10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.


the first ones are pretty easy to understand, but the increasing of lawlessness means from the Christian churches.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

This term lawlessness is taken from the Pharisees. They were to teach the people Jehovah's law. But instead they added their own and made it very burdensome for the people. In the time of the end Christendom also were teach the people Jehovah's word about Jesus, but instead they have taught people from pagan ideas. The trinity, life after death, idolatry, they set up a clergy class, they say that you don't have to do anything, just come to church and all will be OK. You don't have to preach about Jesus and Jehovah. This is part of the sacred secret that will be known in the last days. So Christendom is the man of lawlessness class.

John specifically mentions apostates as among those of the antichrist by referring to those who “went out from us,” abandoning the Christian congregation. (1Jo 2:18, 19) It therefore includes “the man of lawlessness” or “son of destruction” described by Paul, as well as the “false teachers” Peter denounces for forming destructive sects and who “disown even the owner that bought them.”—2Th 2:3-5; 2Pe 2:1
Christendom came from the congregation that Jesus and his followers started . But have deviated from Jesus teachings.

The apostle Peter drew a parallel between the apostasy from Christianity and that which occurred in the natural house of Israel. He said: “However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.” Peter goes on to point out that these would exploit the congregation but that “the destruction of them is not slumbering.”—2Pe 2:1-3.

it'sme said:

It will pan out in the end, Jehovah's purpose will be done, there is no other possibility. In Noah's' time all the people were wiped out except Noah and his family. The last days are compared to Noah's day, and few then will survive also. So it will pan out, it's just that, who will it pan out for?

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It will not be a group of people who only go house to house passing out literature and ignore the very words of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.

Mat 25:41-46
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
(46) And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
​

Matthew chapter 24 . Jesus answers the requests of his disciples concerning the end of the age and the setting up of the kingdom of God. It must be remembered that the Jewish idea of the Messianic deliverer was that of an expected conqueror who would overthrow all governments and ussher in God’s kingdom under David’s descendent. What the people of Israel thought about the coming Messiah and how things would go was different from what God was about to show to the world through a suffering servant (Messiah) as opposed to a sword wielding servant (Messiah). Now I have briefly stated some misunderstandings that first century Jews believed and this only goes to show why many religious Jews rejected Jesus. The question that I believe you are asking has to do with dates of the gospels and how Matthew is related to revelation. I don’t know why dates are a problem in answering your question. I can only say that the first century mindset was apocalyptic in nature and so the Jewish expectation of the coming Messiah was seen in light of God setting up his kingdom on earth. Jesus said in Matthew, No man knows the day or the hour but my father who is in heaven. However, he presents an interesting expose on what would happen in the near future. If you examine the parable of the Wicked Husbandman it is an example of God sending prophets and finally his own son who is killed. At the end of the parable Jesus says God will send his armies to destroy them. Jesus also said that there be some standing here that will not die until they see these things come to pass. I believe that the first half of Matthew is dealing with the history immediately following the death of Jesus when the Jews fulfilled the parable by killing the Son and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD when the Roman armies fulfilled the final part of the same parable. These things are part of what Jesus is speaking about in the first half of Matthew. Looking more closely at the chapter you can see more of his forecasting of immediate local events transpiring within His generation. In Matthew 24;15-16 the abomination of desolation is in fact the taking over of the Temple by the Roman armies and Jesus says that when these things are in progress one should not return to the city but should flee from Judea to the mountains. Then there is a futuristic foretelling of events that take on global significance. Jesus speaks of two men being in bed, one taken the other left, of two in a field one taken the other left. In this one can see that in different parts of the world there is day and there is nighttime in which some sleep while in other parts of the world some are awake and working. This is the future forecast that Jesus is relaying in the second part of Matthew where Jesus is now speaking not of his generation but of period of time just before his return to earth. Verse 29 begins the episode of what is believed by scholars to be events shortly before Christ return.
LG

lookingglass
We are pretty close on this.
What did you think about what I said about the man of lawlessness, and how Jesus return would not be fleshly but that it is by signs we know he is here? In other words his presence.

it'sme said:

lookingglass
We are pretty close on this.
What did you think about what I said about the man of lawlessness, and how Jesus return would not be fleshly but that it is by signs we know he is here? In other words his presence.

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Is it the sentence or are you trying to say the the REAL Jesus will not be returning in the flesh?

Your statement>When Jesus ascended into heaven, according to the record, “a cloud caught him up from their vision.” (Ac 1:9) The disciples did not see Jesus riding away on a cloud, but rather, the cloud obscured their vision of him. This helps us to understand Jesus’ words concerning his presence: “They will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory,” and Revelation’s statement: “He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.” (Lu 21:27; Mt 24:30; Re 1:7) In past cases clouds represented invisible presence; but observers could “see” the meaning with their mental “eyes.” In this case the physical occurrences that are visible would cause the one looking to “see” or realize that Christ is invisibly present.—See also Mt 24; Mr 13; Re 14:14.>
I have never heard of this type of interpertation and although I think it is an interesting way of interperting the text I also belive scholars have showed that there remains at least one other way to look at it. When Jesus spoke in this particular way he was in fact stating an ancient idea of Judgement and overcoming of enimies. You see it is God's way of saying I will pour out my wrath on my enemies who rejected and killed my son and I will, COME IN POWER RIDING IN THE CLOUDS is an old testament saying of symbolic hyperbole concerning this. By using the Roman armies to destroy the seat of jewish power, the temple itself, God was in effect pouring out His wrath on those false religious inhabitants who refused His new covenant. His work with the isrealites was over at least with those who would not accept his new covenant and His setting up of a spirtitual kingdom was about to replace it. The old system once removed would take on a new look in which God himself becomes our new temple. We no longer need the old ways of temple worship and we can now come boldly before the Throne of Grace. Those Jews who held onto the old covenant and the seat of religious power were determined to fight the impending invasion even to the death and so by setting up a fortress using the temple and its surrounding walls they made ready to keep the Romans out. That was a terrible time and the historian Josephus wrote in detail about what happen in a book on the fall of Jerusalem. Jesus said this time would be very dangerous time not since the beginnng of time and never would again be as bad and he warned his people to flee the wrath to come by heading to the mountians away from Judea and not to turn back for personal belongings.

Your statement>This term lawlessness is taken from the Pharisees. They were to teach the people Jehovah's law. But instead they added their own and made it very burdensome for the people. In the time of the end Christendom also were teach the people Jehovah's word about Jesus, but instead they have taught people from pagan ideas. The trinity, life after death, idolatry, they set up a clergy class, they say that you don't have to do anything, just come to church and all will be OK. You don't have to preach about Jesus and Jehovah. This is part of the sacred secret that will be known in the last days. So Christendom is the man of lawlessness class.

This is probably what had and is continuing to happen. I know that there are different ways of looking at this. I am probably going to say that the Man of sin or lawless one is not necessarily a specific person but rather an apsotate church. It is also important to remember that Paul spoke of a great falling away that would point to the seconding coming when many would forsake the truth. Lastyl the apostle John states in his epistles that many antichirist were around back then and so there seems to be an idea of end times taking on a dispensation that begins with the death of christ and ends at the second coming.
Later,LG

Is it the sentence or are you trying to say the the REAL Jesus will not be returning in the flesh?

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Yes this is correct.
The scriptures talk about Jesus second coming the word used is
The Greek word from which “presence” is translated is pa‧rou‧si′a, formed from pa‧ra′ (alongside) and ou‧si′a (being; derived from ei‧mi′, meaning “be”). Hence, pa‧rou‧si′a means, literally, “being alongside,” that is, a “presence.” It is used 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, frequently with regard to the presence of Christ in connection with his Messianic Kingdom.—Mt 24:3;
Jesus is going to rule the earth along with 144,000. The 144,000 are going to be in heaven, with Jesus. So Jesus place of ruler ship is in the heavens, and it is from the sign's of his presence we know that he id ruling. He doesn't abandon the 144,000 to be on their own. That is why in Matthew is says

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.


That is why this verse says that, don't believe them if they say he is here or over there, becasue Jesus second coming is heavenly, and we will not 'see' him physically. It is only by the signs we will know he is there ruling. That is why he is coming in the clouds.

it'sme said:

Yes this is correct.
The scriptures talk about Jesus second coming the word used is
The Greek word from which “presence” is translated is pa‧rou‧si′a, formed from pa‧ra′ (alongside) and ou‧si′a (being; derived from ei‧mi′, meaning “be”). Hence, pa‧rou‧si′a means, literally, “being alongside,” that is, a “presence.” It is used 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, frequently with regard to the presence of Christ in connection with his Messianic Kingdom.—Mt 24:3;
Jesus is going to rule the earth along with 144,000. The 144,000 are going to be in heaven, with Jesus. So Jesus place of ruler ship is in the heavens, and it is from the sign's of his presence we know that he id ruling. He doesn't abandon the 144,000 to be on their own. That is why in Matthew is says

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.


That is why this verse says that, don't believe them if they say he is here or over there, becasue Jesus second coming is heavenly, and we will not 'see' him physically. It is only by the signs we will know he is there ruling. That is why he is coming in the clouds.

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So how do you tie this in...

# 1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

# 1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

# 2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This is probably what had and is continuing to happen. I know that there are different ways of looking at this. I am probably going to say that the Man of sin or lawless one is not necessarily a specific person but rather an apsotate church. It is also important to remember that Paul spoke of a great falling away that would point to the seconding coming when many would forsake the truth. Lastyl the apostle John states in his epistles that many antichirist were around back then and so there seems to be an idea of end times taking on a dispensation that begins with the death of christ and ends at the second coming.

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Yes this is correct to be an apostate you have to have the truth at one time and then turn your back on it. Even in Pauls time there were ones that were deviating from the truth. Over the centuries, this deviation grew, until now Chrsitendom , is far removed from the truth, and is actually teaching against Jesus. For example the trinity and a 'after life'.

visionary said:

So how do you tie this in...

# 1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

# 1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

# 2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

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1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

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This scripture is talking about Jesus when he came to the earth the first time and died for man.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

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This verse explains this one 1 John 4:3

2 Thessalonians 2:7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.

So this lawlessness was already starting in Jesus day. To he that has the right ( this is Jesus) But then meaning in later times ( the time of the end ) it will be revealed. That time is now. Did you notice here again the word used for Jesus coming is presence.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

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Here again this is talking about Jesus first coming. That is the only time he is in the flesh.The antichrist then, were the Jewish religious leaders, that but Jesus to death. These leaders picture Christendom clergy today.

Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

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If you read the the verses around the verse you quoted it explains it.

Acts 1:9 And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11 and they said: “Men of Gal′i‧lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

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.
This means Jesus always is the same in his love for Jehovah , his is work for him. Jesus had a prehuman life, he then came to the earth and then was resurrected to heaven. So Hebrews here is not talking about Jesus just in the flesh, because Jesus is the same even when in heaven.

Yep.. right after Thomas poked Him in the ribs and hands... making sure He was in the flesh...

If you read the the verses around the verse you quoted it explains it.

Acts 1:9 And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11 and they said: “Men of Gal′i‧lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

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It is quite clear from scripture that God raised christ bodily from the grave!
I do not know how one can get around this truth. Paul said if christ be not risen then our hope and faith is in vain! Any attempt to nullyfy this with another interpertation is entertaining heresy. When he appears every eye shall see him. It does not say every minds eye.
LG

visionary said:

Yep.. right after Thomas poked Him in the ribs and hands... making sure He was in the flesh...

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You have to use all the scriptures in the bible to get the understanding.

Matthew 24: 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The term presence and clouds both agree with this statement that Jesus will not be physical when he returns. The bible here says that you have been forewarned, that he will not be over there or here. " Do not believe it". Becasue he is not coming physically on the earth.
Jesus came to the earth to die for mankind , he does not have to do that again. Jesus is now ruling in the heavens, and it is only by the signs that you will know that he has taken over Satan's position. That is why the word presence is used, and clouds.

False Christs can make only a visible appearance. In contrast, Jesus’ presence will be invisible. It will occur during a frightful time in human history, as Jesus says: “The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.” Yes, this will be the blackest period of mankind’s existence. It will be as if the sun were darkened during the daytime, and as if the moon did not give its light by night.
“The powers of the heavens will be shaken,” Jesus continues. He thus indicates that the physical heavens will take on a foreboding appearance. The heavens will not simply be the domain of birds, but they will be filled with warplanes, rockets, and space probes. The fear and violence will exceed anything experienced in previous human history.