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Featured How Messed Up Are People?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Totally Messed Up (Augustine, Calvin)

    15 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. Partly Messed Up (Catholicism, Arminianism)

    10 vote(s)
    37.0%
  3. Not Messed Up (Pelagius, Liberal Christianity)

    2 vote(s)
    7.4%
  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    That would be a very indelicate way to handle Scripture and would lead to several contradictions.
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I agree, so which of the three answers reflects that POV?
     
  3. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    To whom is little given, only a little is expected in return. I think that small children, mentally disabled and similar will have much lighter judgement.
     
  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    That would be a separate question. The OP refers to existential ability and not theoretical ability.
     
  5. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    What contradictions?
     
  6. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    Paul in Romans 8:9 says to converted sinners that they are no longer in the flesh. If "flesh" always means "body" then this would be very strange.
     
  7. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think the Bible clearly expresses the concept that all have sinned, all have fallen short of perfection which in this case would be described as sinless. Beginning with Adam and Eve we see sin corrupting the individual, and then with Cain and Abel the family, and with Noah the community, and with the Tower of Babel the whole world.

    I believe each of us is born innocent of sin but all are subject to the consequences of sin that is knowingly or unknowingly committed. That would be consequences of our own sin that we will inevitably commit because none of us are born perfect. And that would be consequences of the sin of others we encounter in life, and the consequences of the sin of all that have gone before us that results in wrong or evil thoughts and actions, that has corrupted civilizations that we are born into, that has spoiled God's perfect creation by fouling the water, air, soil. We now have genetic defects, cancers, and all manner of ailments that most likely would not exist had sin not entered the world.

    So yes, we are all messed up in some way and we are all in need of God's grace and redemption from sin. I think God's grace must be very powerful in that humankind has survived at all considering how much sin it has introduced into the world.
     
  8. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    I would say that Jesus was born with a fully functioning spirit that controlled His body from birth onward.

    We are born with "comatose" spirits, leaving our minds at the mercy of loudly yowling bodies...until our spirits are quickened in salvation. At that point, a new Christian has to go through a lifetime of "spiritual therapy" to gain control of the body that had been ruling him since birth.
     
  9. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    I do not think that the proper handling of this verse is to say "sarx does not mean flesh".

    I think Paul is saying that who is born of Spirit does not live according to flesh, i.e. "is not in flesh", its a metaphorical shortage, so frequent with Paul. Similarly, to live according to Spirit is called "living in Spirit".
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  10. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    You keep using that word. That word does not mean what you think it means.
     
  11. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    The word "yuck"?
     
  12. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Yes.

    My reading of scripture--including the verse you alluded to--indicates that God's judgment takes a person's knowledge of Him into consideration.

    And also that God is biased toward salvation.

    So an infant is under God's grace because it is absolutely ignorant, not because it has any innate innocence until some arbitrary age.
     
  13. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Gnosticism. I don't think you actually understand what a gnostic is. Kind of like people who see someone wearing a uniform and cry, "Fascist!"
     
  14. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    I think that I understand gnosticism fairly well. We had to study it quite a bit in seminary.
     
  15. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    Hmmm... do you think that for example a 1 month old child can be "guilty" of something in some normal meaning?
     
  16. John 1720

    John 1720 Harvest Worker Supporter

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    I think Jesus said it best, "We must be reborn from above". We need a new nature and only 'God with us', the abiding Christ through the Holy Spirit can give that to us.
     
  17. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Then why are you using it wrong?
     
  18. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    I aint.
     
  19. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    The infant is categorically a "sinner" because it is fully obedient to the desires of its body. What the flesh demands, the baby seeks to provide it without question. The baby is slave to its flesh rather than to God--which is why it is categorically a sinner.

    When I say "under God's grace," I'm not saying that one is "not guilty." The necessity of grace presumes the presence of guilt. Innocent people need no grace.
     
  20. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    But you declare someone a "gnostic" like people who see someone wearing a uniform and cry, "Fascist!"

    So, no, I don't think you know what the word means because you use it wrong.

    It apparently doesn't matter that you went to school, because you still use the word wrong.
     
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