How Messed Up Are People?

[trophy33]

The infant is categorically a "sinner" because it is fully obedient to the desires of its body. What the flesh demands, the baby seeks to provide it without question. The baby is slave to its flesh rather than to God--which is why it is categorically a sinner.

Can it be technically a sin, when there is no commandment? Animals, for example, are not sinning, because they do not have knowledge of any commandment. Animals can break some human or animal rules, but they cannot sin against God.

 

[Tree of Life]

But you declare someone a "gnostic" like people who see someone wearing a uniform and cry, "Fascist!"

So, no, I don't think you know what the word means because you use it wrong.

It apparently doesn't matter that you went to school, because you still use the word wrong.

Nup.

 

[RDKirk]

Can it be technically a sin, when there is no commandment?

The first commandment is to "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart and all your mind."

An infant is not doing that. Of course, the infant does not know to do that...and as I said, God takes that ignorance into account.

 

[trophy33]

The first commandment is to "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart and all your mind."

An infant is not doing that. Of course, the infant does not know to do that...and as I said, God takes that ignorance into account.

But that commandment was given to adult Jews, not to infants and not to Aztecs, if you understand what I mean.

Or, maybe you believe that just the declaration of this commandment in some time to somebody makes it a general rule for every creature and for all times, both past and future, and therefore made every creature to be a sinner, no matter if the creature heard it?

 

[RDKirk]

But that commandment was given to adult Jews, not to infants and not to Aztecs, if you understand what I mean.

Or, maybe you believe that just the declaration of this commandment in some time to somebody makes it a general rule for every creature and therefore made every creature to be a sinner, no matter if the creature heard it?

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. -- Romans 1

Anyone who has lived long enough will have seen enough to realize that God exists and is virtuous.

Paul could say that because he knew of the doctrine of the Unknown God--a formal philosophy of Greeks who had determined through the study of nature (principally astronomy) that a supreme, perfectly virtuous creator God existed, although He could not be known by less-than-perfectly virtuous man.

 

[anna ~ grace]

A lot of the debate about salvation, justification, faith, and good works comes back to this question. Everyone knows that people have a sin problem, but how far down does it go? How badly has sin affected the human race? The traditional responses have been...

1. Totally Messed Up - This was the view of Augustine contra Pelagius. Pelagius taught that sin was not an inherited condition of mankind, but a personal choice. Everyone was born neutral with the freedom to choose either good or evil. Everyone had the natural, God-given ability to be good. Therefore, salvation came as a result of our own efforts to be good. Contrary to this, Augustine taught that sin has totally messed people up and apart from God's grace there is no hope for salvation. Calvin followed Augustine and taught that God must regenerate a person in order for them to respond to him.
   
   
2. Partly Messed Up - The Old Catholic church initially adopted Augustine's view but later drifted into a form of semi-Pelagianism. The Roman Catholic church's position today is that sin has sort of messed up people, but not completely. All people have the ability to respond to God and so salvation is a result of God's grace, but also man's spontaneous response. God and man work together for a person to be saved. This also has become the Arminian view.
   
   
3. Not Messed Up - This is the view of Pelagius (as described above) and many liberal Christians today. There is no original sin and sin is not an inherited condition. It's perfectly normal for humans to be imperfect and God does not expect perfection from us (liberal Christianity). OR God does demand that we be good and we do have this power within us. Therefore we are saved through tapping into our own inner goodness and being the people we know we can be (Pelagius and also some liberals).

What do you say?

I would go with 2. We are indeeed damaged by sin and separation from God, but by His grace are still capable of virtue, faith, charity, selflessness, reason, and concluding and doing what's right. The law that is written on our hearts.

 

[trophy33]

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. -- Romans 1

The context is that the wrath of God is against them because they made idols and served the creation instead of Creator... So, the infant baby is still out of game. It does not have anything revealed and it does not make any rebellious choices. Can we still call it "a sinful baby"?

 

[Tree of Life]

I would go with 2. We are indeeed damaged by sin and separation from God, but by His grace are still capable of virtue, faith, charity, selflessness, reason, and concluding and doing what's right. The law that is written on our hearts.

So not only is the Law written on our hearts, but the capabilities of obedience to the Law also still exist within fallen, unregenerate man?

 

[RDKirk]

The context is that the wrath of God is against them because they made idols and served the creation instead of Creator... So, the infant baby is still out of game. It does not have anything revealed and it does not make any rebellious choices.

The infant serves its own body--a created thing. Most pagans serve their own flesh, and their idols are their flesh.

"...their gods are their bellies" Philippians 3

 

[trophy33]

The infant serves its own body--a created thing.

Hmm... interesting thought.

 

[anna ~ grace]

So not only is the Law written on our hearts, but the capabilities of obedience to the Law also still exist within fallen, unregenerate man?

Within everyone. I work retail, and have seen things like virtue, kindness, generosity, selflessness, forgiveness, patience, temperance, self-control, love, and mercy at work in folks who do not profess any kind of Christian faith, but they are still capable to doing good things.

 

[Tree of Life]

Within everyone. I work retail, and have seen things like virtue, kindness, generosity, selflessness, forgiveness, patience, temperance, self-control, love, and mercy at work in folks who do not profess any kind of Christian faith, but they are still capable to doing good things.

Are these good things meritorious and capable of earning eternal life?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Are these good things meritorious and capable of earning eternal life?

Apart from faith in Christ, no. But they are still evidence of an innate capacity for virtue among non-Christians.

 

[DamianWarS]

A lot of the debate about salvation, justification, faith, and good works comes back to this question. Everyone knows that people have a sin problem, but how far down does it go? How badly has sin affected the human race? The traditional responses have been...

1. Totally Messed Up - This was the view of Augustine contra Pelagius. Pelagius taught that sin was not an inherited condition of mankind, but a personal choice. Everyone was born neutral with the freedom to choose either good or evil. Everyone had the natural, God-given ability to be good. Therefore, salvation came as a result of our own efforts to be good. Contrary to this, Augustine taught that sin has totally messed people up and apart from God's grace there is no hope for salvation. Calvin followed Augustine and taught that God must regenerate a person in order for them to respond to him.
   
   
2. Partly Messed Up - The Old Catholic church initially adopted Augustine's view but later drifted into a form of semi-Pelagianism. The Roman Catholic church's position today is that sin has sort of messed up people, but not completely. All people have the ability to respond to God and so salvation is a result of God's grace, but also man's spontaneous response. God and man work together for a person to be saved. This also has become the Arminian view.
   
   
3. Not Messed Up - This is the view of Pelagius (as described above) and many liberal Christians today. There is no original sin and sin is not an inherited condition. It's perfectly normal for humans to be imperfect and God does not expect perfection from us (liberal Christianity). OR God does demand that we be good and we do have this power within us. Therefore we are saved through tapping into our own inner goodness and being the people we know we can be (Pelagius and also some liberals).

What do you say?

It seems you favour totally messed up. The question is good but it could have been presented with less bias.

 

[Tree of Life]

Apart from faith in Christ, no. But they are still evidence of an innate capacity for virtue among non-Christians.

If their actions are virtuous, why are they not acceptable to God?

 

[bcbsr]

So you think that people are sort of messed up like the Roman Catholics and Arminians?

Nope, not as you defined their position, because I'm not a semi-pelagianist.

 

[anna ~ grace]

If their actions are virtuous, why are they not acceptable to God?

Well, God, the Triune God, is the source of ultimate goodness. He has created us, loves us, and has given us a conscience. It is between us and Him to seek Him, respond to His grace, and to the Gospel, if we have access to it. If a soul has no access to the Gospel, God will not judge them unjustly, and there is no point at which God's Divine Mercy stops pursuiting us. Until we finally will to reject it. Beyond this, it is a mystery and ultimately between the soul, and God.

 

[Tree of Life]

Well, God, the Triune God, is the source of ultimate goodness. He has created us, loves us, and has given us a conscience. It is between us and Him to seek Him, respond to His grace, and to the Gospel, if we have access to it. If a soul has no access to the Gospel, God will not judge them unjustly, and there is no point at which God's Divine Mercy stops pursuiting us. Until we finally will to reject it. Beyond this, it is a mystery and ultimately between the soul, and God.

I think my question still stands.

 

[HatGuy]

The Old Catholic church initially adopted Augustine's view but later drifted into a form of semi-Pelagianism. The Roman Catholic church's position today is that sin has sort of messed up people, but not completely. All people have the ability to respond to God and so salvation is a result of God's grace, but also man's spontaneous response. God and man work together for a person to be saved. This also has become the Arminian view.

The Arminian view is not semi-Pelagian but semi-Augustinian.

 

[redleghunter]