How many people would go for this if they could?

[jpcedotal]

Why are you picking a verse out of a chapter of parables and explanations and saying that verse is neither?

Because where this verse is located, Jesus is telling the disciples what the parable means....literally, not telling a parable.

You are making the Bible fit your beliefs. Read the Word as it is written even when it steps on your toes.

 

[Mobiosity]

Because where this verse is located, Jesus is telling the disciples what the parable means....literally, not telling a parable.

You are making the Bible fit your beliefs. Read the Word as it is written even when it steps on your toes.

What is your take on Revelation 20?

 

[Mobiosity]

I'm unaware that the quote I mentioned is from a parable. It could, of course, be a parable. If it is just a parable in your judgment, what do you believe actually happens to people after death who don't (figuratively or literally) have their names written in the book of life? Are the dead brought back to conscious awareness for judgment? Or are they left dead and only restored to life if God chooses to do so?


eudaimonia,

Mark

According to the last book in the Bible; Revelation, everyone is resurrected for the final judgement. If their names aren't written in the Lamb's Book of Life, they cease to exist.

 

[Mobiosity]

Because where this verse is located, Jesus is telling the disciples what the parable means....literally, not telling a parable.

You are making the Bible fit your beliefs. Read the Word as it is written even when it steps on your toes.

I see the weeping and gnashing of teeth as metaphorical. Those who have no hope wailing because of their bitter state.

 

[jpcedotal]

I see the weeping and gnashing of teeth as metaphorical. Those who have no hope wailing because of their bitter state.

That not the way Jesus Christ sees it...I will side with Him

 

[Mobiosity]

That not the way Jesus Christ sees it...I will side with Him

He told you this, personally?

 

[Wicked Willow]

That not the way Jesus Christ sees it...I will side with Him

And you know this... how exactly?

See, there is a reason why the term "fundamentalism" has broadened in meaning, and is now being used to describe religious extremism in general, rather than just a specific self-styled Protestant denomination.

 

[jpcedotal]

What is your take on Revelation 20?

The great white throne is not general judgment of all. The saved are already gone. This is the judgment of the lost. Just a the the saved dead will one day come together with their bodies and meet Jesus in the sky (1 Th 14:16) the lost dead will reunite with their bodies and stand before the Judge.

Body and soul will along with hell itself be thrown into the lake of fire.

Total and complete separation from God

 

[Wicked Willow]

The great white throne is not general judgment of all. The saved are already gone. This is the judgment of the lost. Just a the the saved dead will one day come together with their bodies and meet Jesus in the sky (1 Th 14:16) the lost dead will reunite with their bodies and stand before the Judge.

So... will there be any at the great white throne judgment who will NOT be thrown into the lake of fire? If not, why bother with going through the whole procedure of looking for them in the Book of the Lamb? Seems like a rather moot point, if you ask me. Empty ritual serving no purpose.
But then again, hell doesn't make any sense, either. It's not a deterrent, it's not a correctional facility, it's not even a protective measure to keep the virtuous save from the vile (for there are far less gruesome ways to achieve that, and besides, heaven isn't filled with the virtuous - it's filled with conveniently bailed out opportunists who were every inch as fallible as the ones who are toast).

Which brings me back to my initial sentiment: my slight horror at the thought that otherwise decent people would worship a deity they themselves pretty much describe as a monster, yet seemingly without noticing it.

 

[RedRaven]

According to the last book in the Bible; Revelation, everyone is resurrected for the final judgement. If their names aren't written in the Lamb's Book of Life, they cease to exist.

I'm confused, and I'm not sure you answered the question. At least not for me, because I had the same question.
You first said

Do they have bodies? I don't think so. They've been dead for hundreds, thousands of years. Only those in Heaven will have new, glorified, whole, healthy bodies. Consciousness is a given.

When is consciousness given? Before or after judgment?

 

[Wicked Willow]

According to the last book in the Bible; Revelation, everyone is resurrected for the final judgement. If their names aren't written in the Lamb's Book of Life, they cease to exist.

... in the "lake of fire". That image certainly doesn't suggest a merciful coup de grace.

Alas, it's weird enough that people manage to read Revelation LITERALLY. There's hardly a text in the whole canon that is more obviously filled with all sorts of encoded symbols and metaphors than that one.

 

[Mobiosity]

I'm confused, and I'm not sure you answered the question. At least not for me, because I had the same question.
You first said


When is consciousness given? Before or after judgment?

At the moment they are resurrected.

 

[Wicked Willow]

At the moment they are resurrected.

So they are resurrected AND conscious when they are thrown into what the text describes as the "Lake of Fire", right?

 

[Mobiosity]

So... will there be any at the great white throne judgment who will NOT be thrown into the lake of fire? If not, why bother with going through the whole procedure of looking for them in the Book of the Lamb? Seems like a rather moot point, if you ask me. Empty ritual serving no purpose.
But then again, hell doesn't make any sense, either. It's not a deterrent, it's not a correctional facility, it's not even a protective measure to keep the virtuous save from the vile (for there are far less gruesome ways to achieve that, and besides, heaven isn't filled with the virtuous - it's filled with conveniently bailed out opportunists who were every inch as fallible as the ones who are toast).

Which brings me back to my initial sentiment: my slight horror at the thought that otherwise decent people would worship a deity they themselves pretty much describe as a monster, yet seemingly without noticing it.

Not a monster. He's provided everyone the opportunity to accept salvation. If you choose not to accept it, you cease to exist. You'd prefer someone who tortures souls forever because he can?

 

[Mobiosity]

So they are resurrected AND conscious when they are thrown into what the text describes as the "Lake of Fire", right?

As far as I can tell, yes. Whether they are in human-like bodies or energy beings, or a flying waffle I don't know.

 

[RedRaven]

Not a monster. He's provided everyone the opportunity to accept salvation. If you choose not to accept it, you cease to exist. You'd prefer someone who tortures souls forever because he can?

But...but...but...You've said that those not in the Book cease to be. That, to me, indicates their existence is finite. How can a soul with a finite existence be tortured forever?

 

[Wicked Willow]

Not a monster. He's provided everyone the opportunity to accept salvation. If you choose not to accept it, you cease to exist. You'd prefer someone who tortures souls forever because he can?

Ah, and another common rationalization comes to light.

No one would "choose" total annihilation in a "lake of fire". Not one. In order to TRULY make that choice, people would basically have to believe in everything Christianity teaches, and then say "nah, I don't want to be saved". That's not how it works, and that's not what happens out there.
Keep in mind that while we may discuss these matters and their moral implications, Non-Christians like me consider them no more factually true than, say, the judgment of the dead by Osiris. We do not "choose not to accept it" - we don't believe there's anything to choose to begin with - just as you believe that there are no body thetans that you need to get rid of my means of Auditing sessions in your local Scientology centre.

 

[_JJM]

Evolution is the organism changing to meet the challenges and realities of his environment. Perception of God is found in most Homo Sapiens. Might this be because the Spiritual is part of his environment, and in his most highly developed mind, he has "become" to perceive and interact with it? As our primate ancestor reached for a real tool, the first man reached for the real heavens.

 

[Mobiosity]

Ah, and another common rationalization comes to light.

No one would "choose" total annihilation in a "lake of fire". Not one. In order to TRULY make that choice, people would basically have to believe in everything Christianity teaches, and then say "nah, I don't want to be saved". That's not how it works, and that's not what happens out there.
Keep in mind that while we may discuss these matters and their moral implications, Non-Christians like me consider them no more factually true than, say, the judgment of the dead by Osiris. We do not "choose not to accept it" - we don't believe there's anything to choose to begin with - just as you believe that there are no body thetans that you need to get rid of my means of Auditing sessions in your local Scientology centre.

Of course you choose. You are given the opportunity, repeatedly to accept His sacrifice for you. You, obviously, have the ability to read and yet you don't avail yourself of all the books written by those who start out to prove Christianity wrong and become convinced that God exists and Jesus, infact did die so that we could be saved.

CS Lewis, one of the greatest Christian apologists started out as an atheist and in his attempt to prove it false, came to believe that it is true. The same can be said for Lee Strobel. There are many, many Christian apologists writing very readable books out there, when you choose not to read any of them, you are choosing total annihilation.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Evolution is the organism changing to meet the challenges and realities of his environment. Perception of God is found in most Homo Sapiens. Might this be because the Spiritual is part of his environment, and in his most highly developed mind, he has "become" to perceive and interact with it? As our primate ancestor reached for a real tool, the first man reached for the real heavens.

One can speculate anything, but evolution doesn't require such an explanation.

Belief in some sort of divine beings may be found in most human beings (in the present day), but that doesn't imply that most people literally perceive gods or goddesses as if through a sixth sense.


eudaimonia,

Mark