How many people would go for this if they could?

[sidhe]

So your religion is based on a question you can not answer? that must really take some doing.

No, my religion is based on the question - "How can you lead a better life?" Like I said, deities don't enter into it unless you actively choose them. But, of course, you have a box labeled "religion," in which all things look disturbingly like Christianity or Islam.

To my knowledge I don't believe I have any 'philosophical perspectives' I know I didn't the last time I looked, perhaps I'm just too down to earth for such things, self-deception has never really figured in my life, that maybe one of the reasons I find religions so mind blowingly crazy and destructive, they make the mind leave reality behind, I day dream and I have a vivid imagination and I have tried to fool myself into believing in something I knew wasn't true, but I failed, the guy was a bum and I knew it.

You are truly a work of art. You go through life with neither metaphysics nor philosophy, yet have some very outspoken opinions on both. Fascinating.

 

[Wicked Willow]

What is the color of music? Is music blue, or green, or some other color?

A distant acquaintance of mine is actually a synesthete. I could ask her. (But I suppose that different songs will have different colours, or rather colour palettes.)

 

[Eudaimonist]

A distant acquaintance of mine is actually a synesthete. I could ask her.

You are ruining my example! Okay, I'm assuming that dingdong is not a synesthete.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[durangodawood]

Which is what the fallacy refers to - using absence of evidence as evidence in a topic which has not/can not be subjected to objective examination. Thus, it is frequently an issue in philosophical/metaphysical discussions where the subject of discussion is purely theoretical and not subject to objective examination.

I agree! ...except where people make claims about this subject's intrusion into the natural world. I suppose the living God could wipe off his fingerprints wherever he goes, treading very lightly.
.
Personally, I accept subjective evidence: internal experience, emotional reactions, testimony, stories, myths. But no one can reproduce a ghost story for the scientists.
.
Fun discussing this with you, BTW.
.

 

[durangodawood]

A distant acquaintance of mine is actually a synesthete. I could ask her. (But I suppose that different songs will have different colours, or rather colour palettes.)

I have a cymbal that makes a decidedly green sound.
.

 

[_JJM]

To believe in something is more than simply acknowledging that it exists.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I've decided to respond to this after all.

Indeed, for Jesus is against all things of the fleshly nature.

Fleshly nature? While I do not deny that we are biological entities, and therefore have flesh, I suspect you miss the point of my ideals.

The account goes that he had all power and authority to reign over and call down wrath upon a world that despised and rejected Him, yet he laid down his life instead, knowing that some among the crowd witnessing his sufferings, would see with certain eyes, not of flesh, but of the heart, and would believe this is the truth of God. That God has done this for them, and therefore, they also ought to do the same for others.

The account of Socrates is that he was despised by the men of Athens for corrupting their youth with the gift of philosophy, and yet he did not show any wrath, but accepted their punishment of death, showing them true integrity and how not to fear death.

The account of John Galt is that he was regarded as a destroyer of the world, and yet only allowed people to destroy themselves, thus teaching the important lesson that people who deny the flesh, or who deny the spirit of man, who split man in two, cannot see with the eyes of reason, and are their own destroyers. This he did for them, so that they might live as they ought.

The Gospel requires of a man a decision, do you see the truth of God in the Man Jesus Christ, in how he has reconciled the alienated (you and I) to Himself, even unto death? The Christian postulate is that if we are to be "of" God, then we must believe in who He is, and belief must lead to action to walk just as he walked, or we are not "of" God.

My ideals require of man a decision, do you see the truth of Man in the philosophical life, in life and even unto death? If we are to be of our highest potentials as men and women, we must love wisdom, and we must walk the path of virtue, or we are not of Man.

If a man truly perceives the message of the Cross, and rejects what it represents, history aside, but based upon Spiritual principle, if we consider closely, he has chosen to live in enmity with others, due to fleshly pride and unwillingness to love others to death.

If a man truly perceives the message of Philosophy, and rejects what it represents, he has chosen to live in enmity with life and reality, for he does not see that he can only live in enmity with others when he lives in enmity with his own nature as a human being.

To reject this is to live in darkness of the understanding.

Indeed. Oh... do you see only yourself as entitled to make this claim?

I'm anticipating the usual "atheist" responses, and that's okay.

You gave me the usual "Christian" response -- the usual "my personal truth can beat up your personal truth" -- so I decided to return the favor. While you will probably feel martyred, and may secretly enjoy that, my point is only to show that there are other personal truths out there that are meaningful and profound to others.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[_JJM]

You gave me the usual "Christian" response -- the usual "my personal truth can beat up your personal truth" -- so I decided to return the favor. While you will probably feel martyred, and may secretly enjoy that, my point is only to show that there are other personal truths out there that are meaningful and profound to others.

Ouch. Licking my wounds . . .

Which philosophy are you referring to? That of Socrates?

Please forgive me if you felt you were receiving the "treatment". The discussion of this thread has been that belief in something unseen or unproven is foolish. I am making the point that the Christian should believe in the Gospel, not out of blind ignorance, but because the message is truth in everyday life, and therefore it becomes reliable for him. Defending the Christian is my intent, not degrading your philosophy.

And evolutionary speaking, the primate flesh, though having learned to cooperate and love to manage in society, also has a more primitive nature, that of selfishness at the expense of others, as this nature has served to elevate it above the rest. Nature is brutal, and the weak are not meant to survive. Yet the Man of the Spirit lays down his life for the weak, for no reason other than Love. He is the Defender of the weak.

 

[Wicked Willow]

@Joshua:

Well, *I* can relate to the archetypal relevance of Jesus, even without being a Christian.

"That which yields is not always weak": there are many different ways of interpreting the crucifixion, but what they all have in common is the revelation that non-violence can overcome violence, and that personal integrity is of utmost importance.

Of course, the motif of the slain-and-risen deity did not originate with Christianity, nor did any of the moral considerations Jesus (or his ghostwriters) offered to his audiences. But it's still a powerful message that can indeed be perceived as a transformative revelation and a positive influence - even though it can also be turned into a tool for controlling the masses.

 

[Catherineanne]

For a small fee I will take all of your sins to Hell with me when I die, and I will even let you decide how much you pay me for each sin, what do you think? let me take the wrap, after all what have you got to lose?

No, I would not accept. Not unless you happened to be God.

 

[dingdong]

No, I would not accept. Not unless you happened to be God.

Yes I am my own God just as you are yours .

oops.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I am making the point that the Christian should believe in the Gospel, not out of blind ignorance, but because the message is truth in everyday life, and therefore it becomes reliable for him.

I see. You are certainly entitled to do that. Thank you for clarifying your purpose here.

You seem like a good sort, so a word of advice... take it for what you will.

I'd avoid saying things like: "To reject this is to live in darkness of the understanding."

I can't imagine that anyone will be not be put off by this sort of statement. It doesn't matter if this is what you actually believe. That's your privilege. However, to anyone who has their own understanding of life, it comes across as arrogant, even if it is not intended that way at all.

And evolutionary speaking, the primate flesh, though having learned to cooperate and love to manage in society, also has a more primitive nature, that of selfishness at the expense of others, as this nature has served to elevate it above the rest. Nature is brutal, and the weak are not meant to survive. Yet the Man of the Spirit lays down his life for the weak, for no reason other than Love. He is the Defender of the weak.

Okay, I see this as a false alternative. It conceeds far too much to the "primitive". It grants to the primitive the realm of life, when in fact it is often the cause of death. There is a third path -- that of attunement to life on Earth.

The so-called weak need not be defended with yet more death, even of a nobler, self-chosen sort. They don't need martyrs; they need everyone, "strong" and "weak" alike, to understand that they should all create life-nourishing values instead of living at the expense of others in a predatory fashion. The "weak" need everyone to live and to let live, to create and to let create, not to die and renounce and bleed and suffer for them.

My ideals are defenders of life and life-nourishing values. They seek the flourishing and happiness of all on Earth, not turning one's back on the Earth as if it was Mordor, or one's human existence as if one was an Orc. Sure, they might be willing to die under unusual circumstances, but never with the implication that life on Earth fundamentally requires death in order for people to live good lives, as if the only fully good person is a dead person.

This is perhaps the most basic reason why Jesus cannot be an ideal for me. He is just the flipside of the primitive -- a reaction instead of a solution.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

@Joshua:

Well, *I* can relate to the archetypal relevance of Jesus, even without being a Christian.

"That which yields is not always weak": there are many different ways of interpreting the crucifixion, but what they all have in common is the revelation that non-violence can overcome violence, and that personal integrity is of utmost importance.

I can relate to this limited aspect of Jesus, but only by ignoring too much about what he seems to symbolize.

But maybe Joshua will be happy with this common ground. Heroes should be principled. I would have to reject any hero-concept that wasn't.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[_JJM]

We don't turn our backs on earth. What the Christian turns his back on is his earthly nature. We can speak of the higher road, but we are evolved. Evolved over millions of years to become quite good at stepping on others to reach the higher branch. Our bodies are attuned to surviving at the expense of others. Socially, we have learned to work together, yet it is self-evident that whenever people live in close proximity to one another for any length of time, they begin to harrass each other.

Here are some "qualities" of mankind:

sexual immorality, covetousness, maliciousness, envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, whispering, backbiting, violence, pride, boasting, disobedience to parents, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful

Certainly this is not all, as people also can exhibit justice, mercy, and love toward others. Yet both exist, and are real for the earth flesh.

These evil things aren't forced on us from the outside. They well up from within. This is the evolved flesh. It is this flesh the Christian mentally walks away from when he is "baptised" into the death of Christ. It is a shedding of the flesh, and a donning of the new man in the spirit. The new man, not of this worldly flesh, embodies all virtue, goodness, and truth. Always.

Those who look at the Christian see that he remains a slave to his earth-flesh, though he has claimed identification will all perfection. He is often labeled a hypocrite and despised for this. Though for the man of flesh who has placed his faith in the King, it is a mental reckoning, not yet reality. It is a Hope.

The Christian hopes in a higher order, a new kingdom, that in which all goodness dwells, where no evil of the flesh remains. That order does not perfectly exist on planet earth.

We can talk of fixing the earth flesh and attuning it to be better, but unless it were to evolve for another million years perhaps, in some sort of vacuum, it's not going to get any better. We are all going to struggle with primal desires to destroy one another. No one is above them.

The solution in Christianity is to follow the example of the Lord, and die to the earth flesh, to reckon oneself to be resurrected with Him in the spirit, and walk just as he walked.

 

[_JJM]

@Joshua:

Well, *I* can relate to the archetypal relevance of Jesus, even without being a Christian.

"That which yields is not always weak": there are many different ways of interpreting the crucifixion, but what they all have in common is the revelation that non-violence can overcome violence, and that personal integrity is of utmost importance.

Of course, the motif of the slain-and-risen deity did not originate with Christianity, nor did any of the moral considerations Jesus (or his ghostwriters) offered to his audiences. But it's still a powerful message that can indeed be perceived as a transformative revelation and a positive influence - even though it can also be turned into a tool for controlling the masses.

I believe it's the Spiritual man that desires your belief. Do you "believe" in Jesus? All things of the flesh are but shadows to teach us, to prepare us for what is to come.

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

 

[Mobiosity]

Yes I am my own God just as you are .

I can't be your god, I don't even know you.

 

[durangodawood]

We don't turn our backs on earth. What the Christian turns his back on is his earthly nature. We can speak of the higher road, but we are evolved. Evolved over millions of years to become quite good at stepping on others to reach the higher branch. Our bodies are attuned to surviving at the expense of others. Socially, we have learned to work together, yet it is self-evident that whenever people live in close proximity to one another for any length of time, they begin to harrass each other.

Every religion is somewhat a personal character transformation exercise for the benefit of the greater society. And all the enduring faiths have proven successful enough in this project.
.

 

[Eudaimonist]

We don't turn our backs on earth.

There is much antipathy towards the "world" in the New Testament. It's regarded as the realm of Satan. This is difficult to miss.

We can speak of the higher road, but we are evolved. Evolved over millions of years to become quite good at stepping on others to reach the higher branch. Our bodies are attuned to surviving at the expense of others.

I don't quite agree. We are social beings who are attuned to cooperating with others.

Sure, some do try to survive at the expense of others. No doubt. However, that doesn't mean that we are Orcs who are somehow evolved to do precisely this. It's not that simple.

Here are some "qualities" of mankind:

sexual immorality, covetousness, maliciousness, envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, whispering, backbiting, violence, pride, boasting, disobedience to parents, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful

Certainly this is not all, as people also can exhibit justice, mercy, and love toward others. Yet both exist, and are real for the earth flesh.

They are real, but they are also subject to choice. Virtues are skills, and what you are talking about are people who lack moral skills. The behaviors aren't intrinsic features of human nature, even if the motivations behind them are.

These evil things aren't forced on us from the outside. The well up from within. This is the evolved flesh.

All those good things too, apparently, and you gave a very truncated list. I'm sure that you can easily think up dozens more good qualities.

It is this flesh the Christian mentally walks away from when he is "baptised" into the death of Christ. It is a shedding of the flesh, and a donning of the new man in the spirit. The new man, not of this worldly flesh, embodies all virtue, goodness, and truth. Always.

We are all of the flesh. Even the virtuous, since every good impulse we have arises from the flesh as well.

The Christian hopes in a higher order, a new kingdom, that in which all goodness dwells, where no evil of the flesh remains. That order does not perfectly exist on planet earth.

And no good of the flesh either?

And did you notice the Earth-hatred above?

We can talk of fixing the earth flesh and attuning it to be better, but unless it were to evolve for another million years perhaps, in some sort of vacuum, it's not going to get any better. We are all going to struggle with primal desires to destroy one another. No one is above them.

I'm not talking about "fixing" human nature, but about improving one's moral skills. Sure, there may be struggle, but it is a struggle that is worth it.

The solution in Christianity is to follow the example of the Lord, and die to the earth flesh, to reckon oneself to be resurrected with Him in the spirit, and walk just as he walked.

Okay, but there are other ideals that may be followed while we are all alive, and some have far less emphasis on yearning after some non-human existence on some non-Earth in some non-living state. Some ideals view us as diamonds in the rough instead of as Orcs.

Anyway, I know that you are just clarifying your position, but I still see Earth-hatred, self-loathing (for one's human "flesh"), and life-hatred. Instead of embracing one's humanity and working on perfecting it, there is a running away. It's not pretty, at least to my eyes.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[_JJM]

No doubt that cooperation and goodness arises in human social orders, but with it, always, remains a sinister and terrifying propensity of the flesh to lash out and ruthlessly destroy one's neighbor. This is not a construct of the Christian world-view, nor is it an infrequent occurrence. Wickedness and acts of hatred toward one's neighbor occur practically everywhere, all the time. We are all guilty of "sin" in various ways. None of us are the moral people that we ought to be. None of us practice the skills of morality as would be necessary to maintain perfect order on earth.

Fortunately, in my mind, we are approaching the actual root of belief when the discussion goes here. It's not so much history, names, dates, etc. as it is a personal reckoning of what Truth looks like in life. Is all Truth embodied in the Lord Jesus Christ? The perfect man, in the flesh, with all authority to judge and condemn his neighbors who had done him the greatest wrong according to the flesh, rather than reign down wrath upon them, gave himself up, even to death, so that some may see his example, repent of their nature, and follow him to death as well. Do you believe in the man, what he has done?

He realized people are weak in the earth-flesh, slaves to the corruption found within. We are all weak and sick, with the "sin of the flesh". We see at the cross that the Great King looks past the flesh to the heart. Therefore, those who have a heart for The Heavenly Man, we follow him there, to suffer with him, for the sake of others, realizing that a neighbor is more than his earth-flesh, hoping that he will realize the same and go to Calvary as well.

The Christian postulate is that this is the decision of your life. Do you sacrifice the flesh or hold on to it? Christianity shows that the King of all Kings sacrificed his for the sake of the world.

It is not running away from the world to be a Christian. It is giving up yourself for the sake of others.

John 8:12 -
“I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”