How many people would go for this if they could?

[jpcedotal]

I don't agree. Worship strikes me as something more than simply valuing something -- even valuing something highly.

When Christians say that they worship God, I suspect they mean something much more than simply liking him or enjoying him, as one might like or enjoy having money.

It seems to me that you are watering down the concept or worship in order to apply it to everyone.


I'm puzzled, btw, at how your post is in any way a reply to the post of mine you were responding to.


eudaimonia,

Mark

no...worship is "life devotion". I am not talking about enjoying or liking. I am talking about "pursuing something with all of your being".

 

[Eudaimonist]

no...worship is "life devotion". I am not talking about enjoying or liking. I am talking about "pursuing something with all of your being".

Very few people pursue something with all of their being. The usual condition is apathy or conflictedness, not devotion. The "being" of too many people is divided and untapped.

In any case, I don't think it is quite proper to say that people who do pursue some "worldly" thing with all of their being are pursuing a "god". One could make an analogy between them and people who serve or praise a god with all of their being, but the analogy is a weak one. It makes for fine rhetoric, but little else.

It doesn't prove that they are being inconsistent if they happen to be atheists. It also makes theists (such as Christians) sound like God for them is merely a metaphor for some personal goal, and nothing more. I doubt that this is the impression you want to give me. I feel reasonably confident that you want me to believe that God exists as a conscious, world-creating entity, and that Jesus was not just a regular man with great devotion, but a divine being. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I'm still not sure why you brought up this issue, though. It doesn't seem to connect with what we were talking about previously.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wicked Willow]

What we are faced with here is a rather unsuccessful attempt at semantic subterfuge:

"to worship" means to venerate a deity or some other concept or object that is considered sacred, first and foremost. What we are talking about here is basically religious adoration, potentially in a ritual setting.

In a more colloquial usage, of course, "worship" can also be used synonymously with "adore" or "greatly desire", derived from the more specific sense the term conveys in the original, stricter sense.

To confuse these two meanings in order to score a point against non-theists means to de-value the actual concept of worship-as-veneration-of-the-Sacred.
As Eudaimonist has pointed out, you are basically either saying that people literally venerate their bank account or their spouse as a deity (which is obviously not the case - at least in most cases, I hope), or else that to worship God amounts to nothing more than the strong craving you might feel for - oh, I don't know, an expensive car or the playmate of the month.


Oh, and Mark: sorry for the repetition. I just felt that it might help jpcedotal understand what we're trying to say if I re-phrased your point once more.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Something similar applies to Christians who try to evoke feelings of guilt and shame in others by spouting nonsense like: "You've made pro wrestling your God, Jimmy!"

Unless poor James set up an altar to the Masters of the WWE, chances are that his buddies merely feel that he's enjoying himself too much, and want him to act more like a proper sheep.

 

[Eudaimonist]

"to worship" means to venerate a deity or some other concept or object that is considered sacred, first and foremost. What we are talking about here is basically religious adoration, potentially in a ritual setting.

That is my sense of the word as well. Any attempt to water down this definition for rhetorical purposes sets off red flags for me.

In a more colloquial usage, of course, "worship" can also be used synonymously with "adore" or "greatly desire", derived from the more specific sense the term conveys in the original, stricter sense.

Yes, I sometimes say that I am a "hero-worshipper", but of course I don't mean this in the full religious sense of worship. It isn't adoration so much as appreciating that someone has accomplished something of worth, or sets a good rolemodel.

For example, I may note that Burt Rutan's efforts to create an affordable means of private space tourism strikes me as admirable. I don't adore him or heap lavish praises on him. I certainly don't sacrifice goats to him or build temples to him. He did not create the Earth or human beings. He is not a supernatural being. He is not transcendent to the universe. He is neither my Lord nor my Savior. He is not even a psychological archetype. However, I do respect him as a personal hero.

If someone wants to say that this means I have a "god", they are free to do so, but this would not be using the word "god" in anything like the way I, or most people, would use the word. It would have no bearing on whether or not I should be called an atheist.

Oh, and Mark: sorry for the repetition. I just felt that it might help jpcedotal understand what we're trying to say if I re-phrased your point once more.

No problem at all. Thanks.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Mobiosity]

Something similar applies to Christians who try to evoke feelings of guilt and shame in others by spouting nonsense like: "You've made pro wrestling your God, Jimmy!"

Unless poor James set up an altar to the Masters of the WWE, chances are that his buddies merely feel that he's enjoying himself too much, and want him to act more like a proper sheep.

I don't know about WWE, but I've seen my share of Redskin altars.

 

[dingdong]

I don't know about WWE, but I've seen my share of Redskin altars.

What is a Redskin altar?

 

[_JJM]

I worship the Son of God.

In the Spirit.

 

[dingdong]

I worship the Son of God.

In the Spirit.

How else could you worship him?

 

[_JJM]

I worship the Son of God in my Spirit.

 

[Mobiosity]

What is a Redskin altar?

If I told you I was in Washington, would that help?

 

[Eudaimonist]

If I told you I was in Washington, would that help?

No. Now you've gotten me curious too. What is it? I've never heard the term before.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Mobiosity]

American Football, Washington, DC, Hail to the Redskins.

 

[jpcedotal]

What we are faced with here is a rather unsuccessful attempt at semantic subterfuge:

"to worship" means to venerate a deity or some other concept or object that is considered sacred, first and foremost. What we are talking about here is basically religious adoration, potentially in a ritual setting.

In a more colloquial usage, of course, "worship" can also be used synonymously with "adore" or "greatly desire", derived from the more specific sense the term conveys in the original, stricter sense.

To confuse these two meanings in order to score a point against non-theists means to de-value the actual concept of worship-as-veneration-of-the-Sacred.
As Eudaimonist has pointed out, you are basically either saying that people literally venerate their bank account or their spouse as a deity (which is obviously not the case - at least in most cases, I hope), or else that to worship God amounts to nothing more than the strong craving you might feel for - oh, I don't know, an expensive car or the playmate of the month.


Oh, and Mark: sorry for the repetition. I just felt that it might help jpcedotal understand what we're trying to say if I re-phrased your point once more.

no, I had it right. The word worship is not being devalued by what I say, it is being devalued by what non-Christians do. The easiest way I know how to show the difference between Christians and atheist is from the viewpoint of what life on earth means:

Christians understand that the life here on earth is only a cover page in the story of our soul. We are here to spread the Good News and also to try and live like Jesus did so that our strengths and gifts will be "fine tuned" for the afterlife. This earth is not our home, only the starting point on our trip to home. We are strangers here, visitors, even illegal aliens if you will. There will be a day when the Atheist religion (yeah I mean religion) and every other non-Christian religion will get their wish and we will be gone from this earth so they can do what they wish (for a little while at least).

Atheists worship or devote everything to this 80 more of less years on this earth. This is home to them...this is all that matters along with future generations on earth. So, physical life, the physical world is the deity. Atheism is a fictional word because everyone worships something, even if it is only humanity itself.

 

[dingdong]

American Football, Washington, DC, Hail to the Redskins.

You do know that if the US ever start mixing with the rest of the world they are going to need to change the name of American football to something a bit more appropriate like American throw ball or American fifty a side ball,
or even American stop and start every five seconds ball.
The reason I say this is because the rest of the world (and I do mean the rest of the world) know what the Americans insist on calling soccer as football, for one silly reason, the ball is kicked with the foot.

 

[hikersong]

We are strangers here, visitors, even illegal aliens if you will. There will be a day when the Atheist religion (yeah I mean religion) and every other non-Christian religion will get their wish and we will be gone from this earth so they can do what they wish (for a little while at least).

Why do you think that somebody disagreeing with you means they want you gone from this earth? Nobody is wishing anything about you, other than you would try and understand them.

And what do you think that people will do any differently when you're gone. I won't be changing a thing about my life and my lifestyle when you're raptured (at least nothing that I am not already trying to change)


Do you wish that everybody who doesn't agree with you would literally go to hell? I doubt that you wish that even if you believe it is what will happen to us.

 

[dingdong]

no, I had it right. The word worship is not being devalued by what I say, it is being devalued by what non-Christians do. The easiest way I know how to show the difference between Christians and atheist is from the viewpoint of what life on earth means:

Christians understand that the life here on earth is only a cover page in the story of our soul. We are here to spread the Good News and also to try and live like Jesus did so that our strengths and gifts will be "fine tuned" for the afterlife. This earth is not our home, only the starting point on our trip to home. We are strangers here, visitors, even illegal aliens if you will. There will be a day when the Atheist religion (yeah I mean religion) and every other non-Christian religion will get their wish and we will be gone from this earth so they can do what they wish (for a little while at least).

Atheists worship or devote everything to this 80 more of less years on this earth. This is home to them...this is all that matters along with future generations on earth. So, physical life, the physical world is the deity. Atheism is a fictional word because everyone worships something, even if it is only humanity itself.

Unfortunately jpcedotal you are never going to find out if Christianity is true or not because by the time you should be finding out you will be dead, we die just like all of the other billions upon billions of animals that have ever lived and will ever live on this planet.

 

[dingdong]

There will be a day when the Atheist religion (yeah I mean religion) and every other non-Christian religion will get their wish and we will be gone from this earth so they can do what they wish (for a little while at least).

Will the people across the world who have never even heard the word Christianity be sent to hell as well?
will the people who were indoctrinated into another religion be going as well?
I must say this jpcedotal, they really did a number on you to get you to believe that way, it's evilness from start to finish.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Atheists worship or devote everything to this 80 more of less years on this earth. This is home to them...this is all that matters along with future generations on earth. So, physical life, the physical world is the deity. Atheism is a fictional word because everyone worships something, even if it is only humanity itself.

I'd like to point out two errors in this statement:

The first is that worship involves idolatry, devotion, love and/or admiration for something or someone. Now you could potentially say that my survival instinct means that I worship being alive, but worship is a much more concious act than that. I don't worship anything - certainly not the universe.

The second is that even if I did worship the universe, I would still be an atheist. Atheism refers to those who don't believe in any god. As long as the thing I am worshipping is not a god (such as life or the world), then I remain an atheist.

 

[RedRaven]

You do know that if the US ever start mixing with the rest of the world they are going to need to change the name of American football to something a bit more appropriate like American throw ball or American fifty a side ball,
or even American stop and start every five seconds ball.
The reason I say this is because the rest of the world (and I do mean the rest of the world) know what the Americans insist on calling soccer as football, for one silly reason, the ball is kicked with the foot.

That's the best description of the game I've heard yet, and that totally made me chuckle.