How Many People Believe that Cardinal Law should Receive a Church Funeral

[Monk Brendan]

How many people believe that Cardinal Law, former Archbishop of Boston should receive a full blown Roman Catholic Funeral?

To hear more about this, follow this link, or this link.

Please state your reasoning.

 

[rockytopva]

I was thinking of him when I started this thread....

You can go your lifetime doing good....

 

[Basil the Great]

Giving him a funeral in St. Peter's would seem to be an error in judgment, as such could be interpreted as a slap in the face to all of the sex abuse victims. Either send him back to Boston or have a small local church in Rome give him a funeral.

 

[com7fy8]

I don't know how he became, by the time he died.

I have been told that Roman Catholicism officially stands for praying for God to have mercy on souls who have passed. And a Catholic funeral, I think, includes that process. So, it would be official policy to give him a funeral which could help him obtain God's mercy.

So, I would say the official Catholic position would be to make sure he got a funeral which could do the most to help him have God's mercy . . . howsoever by now he needs this.

So, officially, they might understand that they must not act primarily on people's feelings and opinions. And . . . by the way . . . if they brought the dead body back to Massachusetts, there could be a major uproar. So, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't, possibly.

I think it is good to have right policies which do not compromise, and I think it is right to feel for people who are suffering. May be, then, there is less suffering if the funeral is in Rome, and if I was a Catholic I would consider it good to give him the best funeral possible, including with publicity so ones of the faithful could be notified to pray for him.

But I am not Catholic. I feel that each victim needs to become strong enough so he or she can not be under the power of this, and controlled in one's feelings by this. Jesus is able to completely cure us so past evil can not have us >

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

And Jesus suffered like He did on the cross . . . so much more than any of us have. I offer > I have been hurt and violated and messed-with in various ways, I would say not as bad as a number of the victims of predators considered to be priests. But it is nothing compared with all Jesus went through for us, while praying forgiveness to those horrible people. And Jesus knew that prayer of forgiveness could work.

So, why worry about what does not work?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Giving him a funeral in St. Peter's would seem to be an error in judgment, as such could be interpreted as a slap in the face to all of the sex abuse victims. Either send him back to Boston or have a small local church in Rome give him a funeral.

A church funeral is NOT a reward! Rather, it is an extreme cry to God to have mercy on his soul.

A funeral at St. Peter's Basilica is a plea for the whole Church to pray for the soul of Cardinal Law. I pray for him, that God will have mercy on his soul.

 

[Monk Brendan]

And . . . by the way . . . if they brought the dead body back to Massachusetts, there could be a major uproar. So, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't, possibly.

Let me ask a question. If you sin and you ask God to forgive you, does he do it? If so, then why should we be so niggardly and jealous about forgiving?

Cardinal Law resigned from his post. He went--practically as a refugee--to Rome. (The people in Boston wanted to tar and feather him, ride him out to the edge of town, and then hand him over to the state police.)

He retired in 2011 from his various positions in Rome, and spent the rest of his time in prayer and penitence. I am sure in that time, he went to confession, and asked God to forgive him.

Why can't the people? Not only in Boston, but over the world? Is our faith so poor that we cannot pray for someone who has sinned? Or is forgiveness only for Protestant leeches who, as TV Revivalists, took a lot of money from all sorts of people?

 

[Basil the Great]

Did you see my post on the One Bread, One Body board? Re: the thread about his passing, I asked for God to have mercy on his soul. However, it seems to me that there is a difference between a Church funeral as such and having it in St. Peter's. I am simply saying that to have it in St. Peter's will be interpreted by some as giving the Cardinal a special place of honor and stature that many feel is not due him.

 

[com7fy8]

If you sin and you ask God to forgive you, does he do it?

Yes, and He expects me to forgive. In Ephesians 4:32 it says, "forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (in Ephesians 4:32)

And if we forgive one another, "even as God", we tenderly share with one another as family. So, how many Catholics personally shared as family with Cardinal Law, in Rome, after tenderly forgiving him?

Cardinal Law resigned from his post. He went--practically as a refugee--to Rome. (The people in Boston wanted to tar and feather him, ride him out to the edge of town, and then hand him over to the state police.)

So, what is wrong with a criminal being turned over to the police? And how is it that there was not authority in place to stop his actions immediately when they started?? Potentially, I can consider, he had a lot of support so he could continue with that. So, why was he the only one who mainly got public problems? Does the Roman Catholic Church officially require that we all go along with wrong actions, like that, since they come from a hierarchically higher person, or are we required to say no and not go along with it? Various people were clerically and administratively included in processing whatever he decided to do. Were they officially required to go along with that, or does the Roman Catholic Church officially require that those individuals needed to say no and blow the whistle, right away????

Also, who ordained such unqualified men? Our Apostle Paul gives us clear standards for who is qualified . . . only to be considered . . . to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. It appears to me that those standards have not been kept. But I have not read or heard one word about how the bishops now are going to make sure they ordain only ones who our Apostle Paul says are qualified. Changing policies is not enough; asking men about themselves is almost silly, since a psychopath is likely not to tell you the truth. So, you need to be able to pray and be blessed with how Jesus makes us able to know who is worthy and qualified to shepherd us John 10:1-31.

He retired in 2011 from his various positions in Rome, and spent the rest of his time in prayer and penitence. I am sure in that time, he went to confession, and asked God to forgive him.

I never knew him personally; so I can not say. I did pray for God to have mercy on him and do all God would please with him.

I am sure in that time, he went to confession, and asked God to forgive him.

Why can't the people?

I can not assume what he did. Whether he asked for forgiveness or not . . . Jesus prayed forgiveness to those horrible people who were crucifying Jesus God's own Son. But did they get the benefit of that? Not all did, it seems to me. Only God can change a person's character so the person really benefits from being forgiven.

Penitence can be like how Judas was remorseful. It was only guilt-tripping himself. 2 Corinthians 7:10 shows how there is true repentance and what only brings worldly sorrow and death. He had the character to do what he did; I do not know if God changed his real character or not.

Is our faith so poor that we cannot pray for someone who has sinned?

But we also need to have faith to be able to see that someone does not know how to love, but is able to betray children. This is not only a sexual misdirection of behavior, but betrayal of trust is a work of hatred, is it not? A person capable of such hatred . . . betraying children . . . is not qualified to be a priest or cardinal or bishop, I would say. This is not at all "blameless", like our Apostle Paul requires in 1 Timothy 3:1-10. And Jesus makes even His "sheep" able to tell the difference, so we do not trust such wicked men; so how come ones even in the Vatican have not been able to tell the difference between a man who is truly of God's love, with a functional conscience, versus someone capable of betraying children and not having a conscience issue to stop this? And why did not others stop this?

Or is forgiveness only for Protestant leeches who, as TV Revivalists, took a lot of money from all sorts of people?

This involves betrayal of trust, too. And if I betray people, I can not at the same time be genuine in God's love. I am losing too much, by betraying children for fake sexual stuff's pleasure or for religious political damage control, or by betraying people in order to get money. It means I do not have a functional conscience for loving!!

So, pointing the finger at Protestant betrayers has nothing at all to do with this. This to me seems like it could be a deflection thing, of being in denial. By the way, at least one Protestant betrayer went to jail. So, in case you want to bring in Protestant betrayers and make them comparable to Cardinal Law . . . equal treatment would mean Cardinal Law needed to join Mr. Baker in jail.

You are concerned about taking people's money. I am much more concerned if a man has no functional conscience to keep him from betraying children. Which is of more concern to your conscience???? Even so, being able to use and betray people is anti-love, so a person can be incapable of knowing how to love, while having the character and conscience to betray people for fake sexual pleasure or for money or whatever. So, these are cases of people who have missed out on finding out how to love; this is so much to lose. This matters much more than only if someone goes to jail or gets treated badly by other people. And this is not only about if someone is forgiven, but if someone is really changed by God to become a genuinely loving person.

After treating others so badly, it is quite some thing how such people and their sympathizers can criticize others for not being kind and forgiving. Ones castrated from the top can be so unhappy when ones under their care turn on them; but they have not been the examples which the people trusting them needed. So, what can they expect? And sending them to jail is not going to turn people into loving and forgiving persons like Jesus' sheep.

So, I would say, Monk Brendan, that your question is not focusing on what needs the most attention.

 

[Monk Brendan]

So, what is wrong with a criminal being turned over to the police? And how is it that there was not authority in place to stop his actions immediately when they started?? Potentially, I can consider, he had a lot of support so he could continue with that. So, why was he the only one who mainly got public problems? Does the Roman Catholic Church officially require that we all go along with wrong actions, like that, since they come from a hierarchically higher person, or are we required to say no and not go along with it? Various people were clerically and administratively included in processing whatever he decided to do. Were they officially required to go along with that, or does the Roman Catholic Church officially require that those individuals needed to say no and blow the whistle, right away????

Well, the Vatican Police have not found him guilty of ANY crime, so maybe you should send in your accusation, along with credible facts that form your case, to the Vatican. If they charge him, okay, but he has to be found guilty in order to punish him.

You know that Cardinal Law is INNOCENT until proven guilty, by our laws, here in America, don't you?

 

[com7fy8]

Well, the Vatican Police have not found him guilty of ANY crime, so maybe you should send in your accusation, along with credible facts that form your case, to the Vatican. If they charge him, okay, but he has to be found guilty in order to punish him.

You know that Cardinal Law is INNOCENT until proven guilty, by our laws, here in America, don't you?

Yes, I do know this.

And I do not know why he was not charged and tried in the United States. I think you said, before, that the state police were possibly going to get involved. What really happened, then? If he was going to get prosecuted, then what happened to keep that from happening?

The Vatican police do not have legal jurisdiction in the United States, as far as I know. So, that would not be relevant. Did the Vatican police hold an investigation? If not, then of course they would not be charging him . . . for whatever he did in the U.S. So, that would not be relevant.

Yes, he is presumed innocent; but if he helped to cover for criminal behavior against children, as was alleged, then why was he not tried in the United States where the jurisdiction is? It has been clearly reported that he engaged in such criminal behavior, and I do not know of any official and legal Catholic report which clearly proves otherwise or even denies this. So, I do not understand why you are bringing up a legal technicality . . . since his bad conduct was alleged.

One is to be presumed innocent and given a real trial. Why was he not tried and presumed innocent until all the evidence was in??

Also, whether or not he was tried, God knows if he was innocent or guilty of betraying children by not protecting them from an evil person. A trial does not decide if he is guilty of that, but a trial is supposed to only provide evidence about that which is either true or not.

And Jesus might say let the one without sin cast the first stone. Various other people were helping Cardinal Law do what has been confirmed, though not in a court trial.

So, what has been done to make sure lower people are fully trained to say no to cooperating with such stuff?? Cardinal Law could not do all he did without support of others cooperating.

So, again I ask . . . what does the Roman Catholic Church officially teach and train all Catholics to do when they know a higher leader is operating in an evil way? How have your consciences been getting trained about this, please.

 

[Monk Brendan]

So, again I ask . . . what does the Roman Catholic Church officially teach and train all Catholics to do when they know a higher leader is operating in an evil way? How have your consciences been getting trained about this, please.

They go to the person, privately, and tell them of their sin. Then if the sinner repents not, take two or three witnesses with him. Finally, bring it out to the whole congregation. This is the Biblical way. This was not done. Oh, maybe someone talked to him privately. However, I doubt that the second step was taken, because the first mother that wanted a bigger BRIBE that she was given called the New York Times, and it was in the press before you could say, "Payback!"

As far as we have been trained, if a person has sinned, then he should go to his confessor. If he takes his penance seriously, then there won't be the problem, and Jesus blots out his sin. What SHOULD have happened is that a mother found out that her 16 year old son was having sex with a priest. That should have been stopped by the bishop right there, but priests got counseling, and were shipped out to some other diocese. Why?

The call to vocations is strong, but the harvest is small. There aren't a lot of men willing to be celibate all of their adult lives. The Church NEEDS married men to be allowed to become priests. As long as that doesn't happen, then there will be abuses.

Now, for the ONE pedophile priest, there are TEN pedophile Protestant Pastors, and I have yet to hear screams of outrage that the pedophile pastors that are being shifted around by their head church to hide the same sin.

I have hung around a lot of priests. I have yet to hear one tell me that they are a pedophile. Nor have I seen one priest first hand that I had heard even the whisper of gossip. And this has been over a period of 40 years or more.

HOWEVER, for the few years that I was attending an A of G church, there were two pedophile preachers, and a screaming queen as the music pastor.

 

[com7fy8]

First, thank you for taking the time to answer my question, and to do so very clearly, Monk.

Now, for the ONE pedophile priest, there are TEN pedophile Protestant Pastors, and I have yet to hear screams of outrage that the pedophile pastors that are being shifted around by their head church to hide the same sin.

I don't know the numbers and statistics. Also, there are different Protestant church groups. It might be interesting to see if only certain groups had more predators, than other groups.

But even if it looked like certain ones had more, this could be only because they were more openly reporting and more organized to have group statistics.

If I understood the media rumor mill reporting correctly, and in case there is something to this, Monk, what I read was that Mr. Shanley had been mobile for some time before it blew up publicly. And there were media people all along who had been reporting it, or at least knew about it. Possibly, in case it really had been known but not thoroughly and publicly reported, this could be because various groups had predators and so it was not really a new thing to report.

So, what did I notice happened, around when Cardinal Law suddenly got a lot of publicity? Was that not shortly after President Bush got elected? And President Bush was being claimed to be evangelical and he was going to oppose abortion. And Cardinal Law had been openly working against abortion. So, if an evangelical president and Roman Catholic Law got into an alliance . . .

My wheels got turning about how that could have provoked certain media people to make more of a big deal, than they had been, about Cardinal Law's activities.

For me personally, though, Monk, I have for some time understood that this evil world does things wrong. And instead of getting upset and downcast and self-righteously out of shape about it all . . . I myself have been an evil person, in various ways, and God has had mercy on me and is still correcting me more and more to be for real in love and mercy and compassion with forgiveness, with hope for any and all wrong people. So, He wanted me to pray with hope for all the predators and their helpers and victims and all the people who were welcoming this opportunity to self-righteously condemn someone and be unforgiving.

And I see how such predators, then, are not only making victims by physical violating children, but they also are helping to produce unforgiving people who can spend their whole lives never finding out how Jesus can have us love. So, their activity has been helped along by all the publicity, so various people can become unforgiving, as the victims of such predators and their helpers.

It is wise to not allow evil people to have power to decide how we are, then!!!

When I first heard about Cardinal Law's thing and read how various people were suddenly getting so in pain and upset, I welcomed that as an opportunity to look down on all those people who had done such evil. And I was despising all the religious people who had been unable to tell the difference between such evil people, and persons who are truly kind and caring people. But God had mercy on me, how I did not keep self-righteously feeding on that.

Jesus died on the cross with hope for any evil person, at all.

Jesus makes His sheep able to tell the difference between a truly loving and caring shephard, versus such horrible men who do not know how to love. So, part of the problem was how so many could not tell the difference. With God, we can > John 10:1-30. So, changing policies might help a little, but we all need to get more real in Jesus and His love with His light so we are not trusting in the dark.

And so, what people did with Cardinal Law or now do with his body, is not going to make much difference, for all that we all really need, I would say . . . to answer your question in another way.

God bless you