How Many Heads ?

[Markea]

We do however have the Holy Spirit within us.

Yes, according to scripture we have Christ in us, we have the Father in us, and we have the Holy Spirit in us, and these three are one.

26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36:26)

I do believe that this is what happens in a born again Christian, even though this is within the context of Israel.

It is not a recreation of yourself, but the Spirit's work in you through sanctification. -- To put on the new man is to be led by the Spirit and not follow after the flesh, (Romans 8:1); to become spiritually minded and not carnally minded, (Romans 8:6).

I agree that it's not a recreation of ourself.. I believe that the new man is Christ in you, the hidden man of the heart as Peter calls Him.

 

[Markea]

If it is this then I'm gonna need a new Nativity set.

The Bible says YOU must be born again, not JESUS must be born again in you.

Dr, you don't believe that Christ is in you ?

 

[Markea]

-> Christians are thus with Christ. So we can't be Christ, nor can Christ be in us if we are with Christ.

Mikey, you don't believe that Christ is IN YOU ? Dr just basically said the same thing.

How do reconcile Paul's admonition to the Corinthian church to examine themselves...

Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.


Or what is your hope of glory... is it not Christ in you ?

 

[Markea]

This conversation is reminiscent of debating Catholics about the Eucharist.

I think so, I didn't realize that some here either do not believe that Christ is in them, or they do not know that.

The Scripture also says "we have the mind of Christ.", (1 Corinthians 2:16). This is not to be taken literally. Likewise when someone says, "I see a lot of your mother in you.", does this imply that she is living inside of you? Certainly not. It means that they see certain traits in you that resemble her. Likewise we are to put on these virtues of Christ:

If you look at the context, the very reason we have the mind of Christ is because of HIS SPIRIT within us.

 

[Markea]

This is what Paul writes in Eph 4...

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[nobdysfool]

So back to the simple point..

The scriptures make it clear (and experience should as well) that Christ is IN you, unless ye be reprobates Paul says...

We also know that WE are NOT Christ...

So there is;

1. Christ in you
2. A recreation of yourself

That's at minimum two distinct natures within the earthen vessel...

I think that it's much more simple than that however... like this..

1. My old man - who I am as born naturally through my parents the first time.. my Adamic nature born according to the FLESH.
2. The new man - who is Christ in me, my hope of glory and who was miraculously birthed in me when I was born again (the 2nd time) by the power of the SPIRIT of God.

Who must I serve, myself or Christ.. ? Who is the elect, my old man or the new man ?

I believe that this aligns perfectly with the rest of scripture... how that if I shall seek to save MY LIFE I shall lose it, and if I lose it for Christ I save it.. how that I am crucified with Christ and nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.. how that I am to set my affections on things above, and not on the things on earth, for I am dead and my life is hid in CHRIST with God..

There would be a serious conflict in the Calvin model because there you have Christ in you and also a recreation of yourself in you... so who do you serve, is it your recreated self that you serve, or is it the Lord Jesus Christ..? Who would the elect be..? Would it be your recreated self or is it Christ in you ?

Logically, in the OP's model, there is no need to be born again, because one is still condemned, and in reality as good as dead. Somehow, the claim is made that one is dead, but then it is claimed that certain aspects are still alive (the frequent references to "I"). The OP tries to make it seem as though the Calvinists are the ones who don't have it right, when in post after post we have shown that it is the OP's model which misinterprets Scripture, takes literally things that are not literal in the sense that the OP takes them, and the truly telling stuff is just ignored as though it wasn't said. Logically, the OP's view does not and cannot hold up under even the most cursory examination. It has been shown to be bankrupt, and scripturally untenable. And yet the OP persists in the delusion...

 

[Hotpepper]

I fail to see how this proves anything against Calvinism. I also failed to realize that all the questions were rhetorical. I just fail... My bad. Moving on...

God Bless.

 

[nobdysfool]

I fail to see how this proves anything against Calvinism. I also failed to realize that all the questions were rhetorical. I just fail... My bad. Moving on...

God Bless.

It doesn't prove anything against Calvinism, because what is being portrayed by the OP is not Calvinism. The Calvinists have been patiently trying to help the OP understand where the view being advocated goes off the rails. It seems to be an uphill battle, but it does benefit others who may be watching and reading.

 

[Markea]

Hmm, you two sure are of one mind on this. In twenty years of debate of soteriology only TWO have raised this question... and on the same thread. Fascinating.

Answer: The term "elect" can be used in more than a single context (similar to the term "president" as I have explained before).

Your comments don't even address what you stated, how that Christ is not born in you... you said that YOU had to be born again (which I believe is true), although you do not believe that being born again is having CHRIST born in you.. do you also think that it's a recreation of yourself rather than CHRIST being born in you ?

IS the Spirit of Christ in you ? If so, then Christ is in you... just as the Father is in you and the Holy Spirit is in you (as scripture teaches), and these three are one.

So I must conclude from your comments that being 'born again' does NOT mean that CHRIST is born in you, but rather a recreation of yourself... right ?

 

[Markea]

I fail to see how this proves anything against Calvinism. I also failed to realize that all the questions were rhetorical. I just fail... My bad. Moving on...

God Bless.

I think you're right, it has nothing to do with Calvinism either, because one doesn't need to be a Calvinist to discuss the scriptural teachings of the old man and the new man... that transcends all born again Christians.

We can however see a distinct difference between how a Calvinist sees a person being born again versus what I thought would be the most obvious view, which is that CHRIST is born in us.. We are baptized into His body by the SAME Spirit... we all have the SAME SPIRIT in us, and that is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST.

Calvinists have said that there is a recreation of themselves which takes place, and two now have said that Christ is NOT in them..

 

[drstevej]

and two now have said that Christ is NOT in them..

Which two of us?

 

[Hotpepper]

Although I don't agree with every aspect of Calvinism, I do agree with a great deal. In fact I teeter on the very line. It is unfortunate that personal bias keeps us from studying individual theologians from other schools of thought. There are many Arminian theologians that I am embarrassed to even mention and wonder why they are even considered Arminian such as Philip van Limborch, Finney, etc.. You can throw in any open theist as well. Likewise Schleiermacher and John Locke, etc.. aren't the most ideal "Calvinists" to put ink to paper.

The point is, when people make assertions (this isn't directed at you anyone in particular) that "Calvinists" are wrong because "they" think xyz... are we to assume that "they" all think alike? The OP's post has a strange portrayal of Calvinism. I absolutely detest being portrayed as a marginalized Arminian that hugs semi-Pelagianism, but what is even worse is when your beliefs are being dictated to you (and everyone else that reads) through a distorted lens. And when you try to appeal against the claims with objection, essentially you are told "No. You believe how I say you believe, strawman." This is what I notice is happening here. So I'm moving on.

If I could pass along some Christian advice, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you don't like being marginalized or misrepresented than don't do it yourself. But rather listen to the responses (again not directed at anyone in particular) and consider the appeals to the claims. Don't tell people what they believe in the form of question that you intend on answering yourself. Listen to the answer.... be charitable.

God bless.

 

[Markea]

Mikey said this and you said that YOU must be born again, not Jesus being born IN YOU..

-> Christians are thus with Christ. So we can't be Christ, nor can Christ be in us if we are with Christ.

The Bible says YOU must be born again, not JESUS must be born again in you.

 

[Markea]

If I could pass along some Christian advice, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you don't like being marginalized or misrepresented than don't do it yourself. But rather listen to the responses (again not directed at anyone in particular) and consider the appeals to the claims. Don't tell people what they believe in the form of question that you intend on answering yourself. Listen to the answer.... be charitable.

God bless.

I think that this is great advice and applicable to anyone regardless of personal beliefs. Debating topics is typically messy and people get offended at times.. I too wish that none of that mattered to a persons comments but rather just be willing to share what the Lord has blessed you with from time to time... speaking the truth in love and building up the one body in Christ.

 

[drstevej]

I certainly said this....

The Bible says YOU must be born again, not JESUS must be born again in you.

But that is not the same as saying....

and two now have said that Christ is NOT in them..

I have said that Christ indwells us spiritually.

Christ indwells me spiritually not corporeally. Same is true of the Holy Spirit.

If I cut myself shaving, I don't hear Jesus say OUCH!

So you have misrepresented my position. I meant exactly what I said. You changed what I said.

 

[Markea]

I certainly said this....



But that is not the same as saying....



I have said that Christ indwells us spiritually. So you have misrepresented my position. I meant exactly what I said. You changed what I said.

Then I apologize.

Let's build on this..

Christ is in you, right.. His Spirit is within us because we have all been baptized into that one body by the same Spirit... right.. ?

That's Christ in us as Paul says... just as he says that the Father is in us, just as he says that the Holy Spirit is in us..

IMO, that happened when I was born again by God.. when He sealed me with His Holy Spirit of promise and baptized me into that one body..

If you're saying that Christ wasn't born in you when you were born again, then what happened when you were born again ?

And if that didn't happen when you were born again, then HOW DID Christ's Spirit get IN YOU ?

 

[drstevej]

When I was reborn I was reborn as a spiritual infant. Jesus indwells me in His fullness.
I grow spiritually from birth to maturity. Jesus does not improve spiritually.

Not too complex.

 

[Markea]

When I was reborn I was reborn as a spiritual infant. Jesus indwells me in His fullness.
I grow spiritually from birth to maturity. Jesus does not improve spiritually.

Not too complex.

Ok, so here it is right..

1. Jesus in His fulness dwells in you..
2. You were reborn as an infant (spiritually) and are growing in maturity.

So there's the fulness of Jesus in you.. and there's the new man in you.. right ?

How many does that make in your mind.

 

[Markea]

Dr,

Also, how did Christ get in you if that didn't happen when YOU were born again ? What event in scripture do you associate with Christ coming into your life and dwelling in you in His fulness ?

 

[drstevej]

Ok, so here it is right..

1. Jesus in His fulness dwells in you..
2. You were reborn as an infant (spiritually) and are growing in maturity.

So there's the fulness of Jesus in you.. and there's the new man in you.. right ?

How many does that make in your mind.

I'll leave the counting to you and Ghost Air, our thread OP.