How many ex-Christians are there here on CF and reason for leaving Christianity?

Did you leave Christianity? And did you return?


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FireDragon76

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I worry that this is a somewhat unbalanced approach to the reality of sin. There have been comments in this thread about Christianity creating a toxic environment for people who struggle with self-acceptance, and while I disagree that the problem is the doctrine of sin itself (I think there are good reasons to hold that self-hatred is a particularly pernicious form of pride, and thus a manifestation of sin as well, see for example: Self-hatred, the forgotten human condition - Anthony Bradley), I am concerned that certain approaches to sin are just exacerbating the problem.

What would you say to someone who struggles with self-hatred? Hopefully not "your self-hatred is sinful and you deserve to be punished for it."

The answer to such "pride" or self-absorbtion need not be a cosmic savior, it could just as easily be mindfulness. This isn't just theoretical, mindfulness has been validated through scientific research to be an effective approach for depression and anxiety, with much higher long term effectiveness than pharmaceuticals.

I myself started focusing on mindfulness again because I have dealt with low grade depression, dysthymia, and anxiety my entire life- and I was not finding evangelical religion in a somewhat traditional Lutheran context to be all that helpful (if anything, it was robbing my motivation of even being religiously engaged in a meaningful sense). If anything, it created new, strange anxieties in response to religious stimuli.

Inasmuch as faith in Jesus or God could help a person achieve some detachment from destructive passions, perhaps that is useful. But when it starts becoming about denigration and the need for punishing oneself or other people for perceived transgressions (especially ones that actually harm no one, such as homosexuality), then I think its not unreasonable to object to that sort of thing as pernicious superstition.

Anthony Bradley closes his blog on pride by asking why conservative Christian pastors don't address self-hatred. The answer is relatively simple, because self-hatred is the "collateral damage" in the pursuit of perceived necessary ends (typically, the glorification of God). And it's not seen as particularly problematic to the working of the religious system, particularly if that collateral damage greatly impacts the perceived enemies of the religion. The punitive mentality flows deep in this sort of religion, after all.
 
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Silmarien

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The answer to such "pride" or self-absorbtion need not be a cosmic savior, it could just as easily be mindfulness. This isn't just theoretical, mindfulness has been validated through scientific research to be an effective approach for depression and anxiety, with much higher long term effectiveness than pharmaceuticals.

I myself started focusing on mindfulness again because I have dealt with low grade depression, dysthymia, and anxiety my entire life- and I was not finding evangelical religion in a somewhat traditional Lutheran context to be all that helpful (if anything, it was robbing my motivation of even being religiously engaged in a meaningful sense). If anything, it created new, strange anxieties in response to religious stimuli.

Inasmuch as faith in Jesus or God could help a person achieve some detachment from destructive passions, perhaps that is useful. But when it starts becoming about denigration and the need for punishing oneself or other people for perceived transgressions (especially ones that actually harm no one, such as homosexuality), then I think its not unreasonable to object to that sort of thing as pernicious superstition.

Anthony Bradley closes his blog on pride by asking why conservative Christian pastors don't address self-hatred. The answer is relatively simple, because self-hatred is the "collateral damage". And it's not seen as particularly problematic to the working of the religious system, particularly if that collateral damage greatly impacts the perceived enemies of the religion. The punitive mentality flows deep in this sort of religion, after all.

Oh, I agree, at least to a point. I don't engage with Vedic practices right now (though I do want to read some of the masters of Advaita Vedanta at some point), but there's a fair amount of overlap between the type of contemplation that I do and mindfulness itself. I don't think the later has quite the same liberating power, since it doesn't encompass the entirety of the human condition in quite the same way--I don't see how mindfulness could touch upon the sort of yawning despair of something like Ecclesiastes, for example, but I am very happy to see some of my secular friends heading in this direction. I do think it's helpful.

(Of course, one problem with mindfulness is getting people to do it at all. I have a friend who is a hard materialist and determinist, and I have tried to gently push him towards Buddhist meditation as a solution to his own problems, but he cannot make himself get into it. I couldn't either before ending up within the orbit of Christianity, and while I'm decidedly not a determinist, I do have concerns about the ways in which the will seem to be bound.)

As far as denigration, I object to that as well. People forget the idea of being made in the image of God far too easily--if the doctrine of sin is overpowering the notion of intrinsic human dignity and value, then something has gone terribly wrong.
 
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Chris V++

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Mindfulness and enlightenment are Christian concepts: ' Take not thought for the morrow, the morrow will take though for the things of itself... Consider the lilies of the field... My yoke is light.... Open your mouth and taste, open your eyes and see - how good God is.... Blessed are you who run to him... meditate on His word day and night.'
 
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Zoness

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I looked up that book on Amazon, out of curiosity, and have been reading it all evening. He makes some good points, though I think his use of the word "pagan" is a bit problematic, treating very diverse religions and spiritualities with a very broad brush.

Yeah that's probably the biggest fault with his argument but that's also the biggest problem with the pagan label, it's way too big for it's practical use. The pagan subreddit picked a specific definition that's why they require the subreddit to stick to for administration reasons.

All pagan and new age philosophy does not answer the sin question.

The sin question isn't relevant to me. In fact Christian theodicy makes no sense at all; if you remove god from the equation entirely the problem of evil can be explained in clear, much simpler terms. When you add god in now you have to make all of these ethical excuses and ram head onto intraversible problems between free will and omnipotence. Ockham's razor carries us forward.
 
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FireDragon76

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Oh, I agree, at least to a point. I don't engage with Vedic practices right now (though I do want to read some of the masters of Advaita Vedanta at some point), but there's a fair amount of overlap between the type of contemplation that I do and mindfulness itself. I don't think the later has quite the same liberating power, since it doesn't encompass the entirety of the human condition in quite the same way--I don't see how mindfulness could touch upon the sort of yawning despair of something like Ecclesiastes, for example,...

I think you would be surprised. Mindfulness hasn't helped only low-grade depression, but even the most serious cases that resist treatment.

The mother of the vipassana movement in America, Dipa Ma, was a Bangladeshi woman who lived in Burma earlier in her life. After the death of her husband, she entered a period of severe despair and nervous exhaustion, and had numerous health problems, until her doctor suggested she study meditation.

(Of course, one problem with mindfulness is getting people to do it at all. I have a friend who is a hard materialist and determinist, and I have tried to gently push him towards Buddhist meditation as a solution to his own problems, but he cannot make himself get into it. I couldn't either before ending up within the orbit of Christianity, and while I'm decidedly not a determinist, I do have concerns about the ways in which the will seem to be bound.)

All you can do in those cases is set a good example for other people and to refuse to validate their self-defeating worldview. Arguing or offering friendly suggestings is unlikely to be beneficial for them.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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That statement is a good example of the No True
Scotsman fallacy.

It also suggests that True Christians™ are unteachable
and therefore unable to learn from new information and
make changes accordingly.

It is also against forum rules to insist that someone isn't
or wasn't a Christian. I would advise caution on that
front.
I am not suggesting they are not Christian.
They are posting why they are not Christians.
 
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awitch

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I am not suggesting they are not Christian.
They are posting why they are not Christians.

You suggested they were not Christian when they said that they were.

"Those who leave are apostates they were not actually Christians
They were religious but never saved.
1jn2:19"
 
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Silmarien

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I think you would be surprised. Mindfulness hasn't helped only low-grade depression, but even the most serious cases that resist treatment.

The mother of the vipassana movement in America, Dipa Ma, was a Bangladeshi woman who lived in Burma earlier in her life. After the death of her husband, she entered a period of severe despair and nervous exhaustion, and had numerous health problems, until her doctor suggested she study meditation.

Oh, I don't mean more serious depression, so much as problems rooted in existential anxiety in general. All of my issues are existential in nature, and mindfulness by itself would not have been able to resolve the various resultant paradoxes.

In any case, it just doesn't work for me. I would not have ended up ransacking the treasures of the Catholic Church if anything else had been able to make a dent in my issues with self-alienation. I find contemplation extremely valuable, but without the beauty of the Transcendentals, I do not have the motivation for any sort of spiritual discipline at all.
 
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cloudyday2

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It also suggests that True Christians™ are unteachable
and therefore unable to learn from new information and
make changes accordingly.
Can you explain your thinking on that point? The verse quoted by @ICONO'CLAST seems to be a warning against non-orthodox Christians - particularly Christians with non-orthodox Christology. Of course anybody who thinks he/she has the right understanding ("orthodox") is naturally going to be less open to new information that challenges that understanding. Is that what you mean?

Hmmm. I forgot to mention the claim in the verse that anybody who is truly part of the Church can never grow to have a non-orthodox Christology (because being truly part of the Church means to have a spiritual connection with Christ that would keep a person's Christology orthodox).

Sorry if this post is confusing. I'm sort of thinking out loud and not sure what I am asking you.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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You suggested they were not Christian when they said that they were.

"Those who leave are apostates they were not actually Christians
They were religious but never saved.

1jn2:19"
A Christian is saved By God.No Christian commits apostasy.

People say many things. Some are deceived
1jn2:
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 
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awitch

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A Christian is saved By God.No Christian commits apostasy.

People say many things. Some are deceived
1jn2:
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If angels can lose their place in heaven, there is no reason to think humans cannot fall away too.

If you were the deceived one, then it would mean that you were never a Christian. But there's no way to be sure until you provide that empirical evidence that establishes what you believe as fact.
 
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Rajni

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Can you explain your thinking on that point?
I'm simply saying that what might be considered a True Christian
can be just as able to learn new things and change accordingly.
If they learn and change, that doesn't mean they were never
True Christians (whatever that means; it changes depending on
which sect one asks).
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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I'm simply saying that what might be considered a True Christian
can be just as able to learn new things and change accordingly.
If they learn and change, that doesn't mean they were never
True Christians (whatever that means; it changes depending on
which sect one asks).
rayj

God makes a sinner into a Christian. The sinner does not change himself. Salvation is of the Lord.
 
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awitch

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rayj

God makes a sinner into a Christian. The sinner does not change himself. Salvation is of the Lord.

But earlier you gave us this passive aggressive threat:
"If you do not repent you will be thinking about it at the white throne judgment"

So we have no reason to repent for anything if God does all the deciding. It's like you're trying to deceive us with all of these inconsistencies.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"awitch,

"]If angels can lose their place in heaven, there is no reason to think humans cannot fall away too.

There is no salvation for fallen angels;
6 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.



If you were the deceived one, then it would mean that you were never a Christian. But there's no way to be sure until you provide that empirical evidence that establishes what you believe as fact.

I am the last person who would have ever believed. I use to curse at Christians.
I was reading the bible to make fun of it, but God saved me despite myself.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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But earlier you gave us this passive aggressive threat:
"If you do not repent you will be thinking about it at the white throne judgment"

So we have no reason to repent for anything if God does all the deciding. It's like you're trying to deceive us with all of these inconsistencies.

I am a very simple person. I have no need to trick you.
I see what the bible declares will come to pass. I offer you and others a warning.
I cannot convince you. I can remove some obstacles.
God has commanded all men everywhere to repent:Acts17:30.
You are responsible. Everything God has said has come to pass.
The rest will also..
I do not want to see anyone perish, but many will.
God has an eternal purpose that is planned and ordained to come to pass.
Your objections are going to be made void.
 
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awitch

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I am a very simple person. I have no need to trick you.
I see what the bible declares will come to pass. I offer you and others a warning.
I cannot convince you. I can remove some obstacles.

I'm afraid you have done nothing but add more obstacles. The image of god that you have presented puts me off even more. You aren't doing your god any favors.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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I'm afraid you have done nothing but add more obstacles. The image of god that you have presented puts me off even more. You aren't doing your god any favors.
Really...let me take it a bit further.

You cannot believe unless God allows you to believe. You cannot be a Christian.
God does not need you or I.
The biblical God is different than the wimpy God many describe.
 
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awitch

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Really...let me take it a bit further.

You cannot believe unless God allows you to believe. You cannot be a Christian.
God does not need you or I.
The biblical God is different than the wimpy God many describe.

Then I'm not responsible for not being a Christian and I can continue to walk my path as I see fit. If your god never allows me to believe, then my eternal blood is purely on his hands. Why would I ever want to honor such a deity?
 
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FireDragon76

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Oh, I don't mean more serious depression, so much as problems rooted in existential anxiety in general. All of my issues are existential in nature, and mindfulness by itself would not have been able to resolve the various resultant paradoxes.

End of life anxiety is usually considered to be a serious existential problem, one for which most conventional medications are simply powerless to resolve. From what I have read, long-term practice of meditation tends to be correlated with similar sorts of reductions in end-of-life anxiety, as what are found with the therapeutic use of psilocybin mushrooms.
 
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