How many ex-Christians are there here on CF and reason for leaving Christianity?

[Jane_the_Bane]

Are there any members here who used to be Christians but became non-Christian?
If so, what was the major reason. How long were you a Christian before that? If you are an ex-Christian, have you ever thought about becoming a Christian again?

For me, leaving was a gradual process - like weaning yourself off the belief that there's a real Santa Claus by first pretending that the obviously disguised people you see are working for the REAL one.
There's no one single or major reason I could give: it was more of a "global" development where I simply realised at some point that Christianity's understanding of life, the universe, and everything had very little in common with what I experienced and understood.
It started with me realising that the Bible's descriptions of their deity were actually quite unfavourable, and in places downright horrifying.
I never really considered a return to that world view possible - I might just as well try to convince myself that the earth is flat or the psyche is determined by bodily "humours".
But over the years, I've become more amiable towards the saner denominations within the larger umbrella of Christianity, whereas I could barely stand any of them in the early 2000s after my first run-in with fundamentalists on these forums. Their beliefs became tarnished by association, basically.
I still can't stand self-styled "conservative Christians", though. Mostly because they seem to embrace the virtual antithesis of everything Jesus stood up for in the New Testament: feed the poor, shelter the refugees, tend the sick, visit the imprisoned, don't use prayer as a means of gaining prestige or status, don't venerate material wealth but give it away to help those in need, discard your weapons and disarm your opponent with humour and non-violent resistance, forgive those who wronged you, love your neighbour, etc.

 

[Zoness]

CWR is one of the forums I follow regularly. I enjoy the conversations with people of other faiths that happen here. I do see from the SOP that CWR seems to have been set up as a proselytizing opportunity -- sorry about that! -- but that's not what I'm about when I participate here. Rather, I like learning about other people's religions and comparing notes, so to speak, about our spiritual paths.

I just wanted you to know -- Zoness and cloudyday2 and the other CWR participants -- that I appreciate your willingness to post here. cloudyday2, I especially enjoy the interesting questions you come up with. I think CF allows everyone to answer questions about their religions, so I'll try to think of my own discussion-starting questions for CWR.

Hey thanks, it means a lot! No worries you're one of the good ones and I enjoy your presence here. I'll keep an eye on the board still and pop in where I think I can fit in.

 

[cloudyday2]

Here, I'll ask it as a direct question; that way, under CF rules, you should be allowed to answer.

I know that the pagan religions vary in their specifics, but as I understand it, some varieties of paganism invoke gods by name (Greek gods, Norse gods, etc.) or cast spells. If you follow one of the varieties that involves gods: Do you see these gods as beings that actually exist; or do you see them as names for the spiritual aspects of the sea, the sun, etc.; or do you see them just as images that help you focus aspects of your personality? Do those who invoke, e.g., Greek gods think that those who invoke Norse gods are mistaken about reality, or just using different words for the same reality? And if you cast spells, do you see that as genuinely shaping the world outside yourself, or do you just see it as a way of naming and focusing your own energies?

If my wording of the questions is completely out to lunch, feel free to tell me that and to tell me what I should have asked.

(cloudyday2, I hope I've captured some of what you were getting at.)

Yep, that is exactly the issue. Hopefully @Zoness or @awitch or some other neopagan can clarify.

 

[awitch]

Here, I'll ask it as a direct question; that way, under CF rules, you should be allowed to answer.

I know that the pagan religions vary in their specifics, but as I understand it, some varieties of paganism invoke gods by name (Greek gods, Norse gods, etc.) or cast spells. If you follow one of the varieties that involves gods: Do you see these gods as beings that actually exist; or do you see them as names for the spiritual aspects of the sea, the sun, etc.; or do you see them just as images that help you focus aspects of your personality?

I see them as real but won't pretend to understand their nature. I anthropomorphize them to make it less complicated. But over the last year or so, I think I start to see them more in natural phenomena; the song of birds or crickets, the million points of light the fireflies make as they light your path, or the pouring wind and rain that hits you when you're out for a walk.

Do those who invoke, e.g., Greek gods think that those who invoke Norse gods are mistaken about reality, or just using different words for the same reality?

I like to think the different pantheons are distinct and unique. They aren't wrong, they're just different.

And if you cast spells, do you see that as genuinely shaping the world outside yourself, or do you just see it as a way of naming and focusing your own energies?

Magic and spells are about changing your own state of mind. If you like to troll people, you can change their state of mind, too. Not with any supernatural means, just psychology. Though, trolling is certainly not ethical.

 

[FireDragon76]

Shinto is a living animistic/shamanistic tradition that is practiced by tens of millions of people to some degree. Clearly, "paganism" can coexist with the modern world. From what little I have studied on the subject, there are various interpretations of what kami are (since Shinto is not a dogmatic religion), and Shinto has been influenced by modernism just as much as any other religion.

Some time ago I read a book on housekeeping by Marie Kondo, who had been a miko girl, an assistant at a Shinto shrine. It was interesting to see how her spirituality influenced her thought. Much like a little child might, she anthropomorphosized inanimate objects. And yet I got the sense there was a logic to doing so that expressed a profound truth about our interrelationship with our home environment, one that for her was rooted in respect and appreciation.

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Changin...ouse+cleaning&qid=1567037712&s=gateway&sr=8-2

 

[FireDragon76]

I was raised as an Episcopalian so those issues you mentioned were much less pronounced. I was exposed to fundamentalist/evangelical beliefs in a summer youth camp, and I agree that those issues can be pretty harmful to some people.

There are also psychological benefits from belief in Christianity for many people. AND there is the issue of truth. The truth should be accepted regardless of our feelings about it or whether it benefits us or harms us.

BTW, this is one of the issues I wish I could understand about paganism/witchcraft/occult. I get the impression that you guys are choosing your gods and practices like you might choose a pair of shoes. Sometimes I have heard it claimed that religions didn't care about belief until Christianity, but I don't think that is entirely correct. The modern revival of these religions confuses me. ... So it is a shame if the rules of CF make it difficult for you guys to explain your beliefs. They are interesting to me (but very puzzling LOL)

It's not that strange.

Many non-western or non-Abrahamic religions focus on pragmatism. A person has some kind of affinity for the religion, or they inherit it from their family. Questions of transcendent truth are just not that relevant, or are often simply seen as naive or paradoxical (as seems to be the case in Zen or Taoism). Truth is not seen as necessarily exclusive. There isn't as much pressure to define one way as right or wrong, as in Abrahamic religions. The ego and thought structures of these cultures and their practitioners are very different.

In Buddhism, ones choice of religion is usually explained in terms of karmic affinity- the energy of our lives drives us in one direction or another. One thing that Thich Nhat Hanh teaches is that no ideology, even Buddhism, should be accepted as absolute truth. Truth is found in living life. There's alot of wisdom in his words and principles.

 

[FireDragon76]

I always find the denial of sin interesting. Coming from a very progressive background, I was moving in an Augustinian direction well before I had any real contact with Christianity. White privilege, patriarchy, the legacy of colonialism, systemic oppression, environmental degradation, the fact that everyone is too focused on their own lives to pay more than a passing thought to genocide, starvation, refugee crises, and so forth. It strikes me as odd that the conservative Christian world is so opposed to progressivism--the language is different, but the message is basically that not only is sin real, but it's also much worse than we thought, and they hate us for it. It's strange.

Can the Christian world be toxic? Yes, it can, and in a similar way to what often goes on in the secular progressive world, where pressure to conform to impossible moral standards can also cause problems. Focusing on sin and ignoring grace is unbalanced, but I'm equally skeptical of criticizing the notion of sin and saying that people ought to accept themselves as they are. That is the sort of sentiment lying behind our national ability to be bothered to do much more than offer thoughts and prayers in the face of mass murder. (We actually had an angry sermon about this a couple weeks ago, about how empty platitudes are not enough, so it has been on my mind.)

Are thoughts and prayers really empty platitudes? Or is somebody yet again trying to make us feel inadequate and broken? Even though I no longer believe in God the way most Christians do, I still spend time praying, offering intentions, for people in my life. The idea those thoughts are empty is deeply hurtful, and I'm sure this is the case for many people who take "thoughts and prayers" seriously.

The not-so-thinly veiled anger and resentments of many in the Christian left bother me almost as much as the petty sexual morality of Christians on the right. Neither are wholesome attitudes. Many people who are enmeshed in exploitative systems of various sorts are not bad or sinful people, and personal attacks are unlikely to bring forth any real dialogue and opportunity for change. In many cases they are simply victims. As Thich Nhat Hanh said, those people need help, not our anger. He correctly understands that environmental destruction, for instance, is rooted in alienation- that "lack" that many Christians peddle in, in the first place.

 

[awitch]

Are thoughts and prayers really empty platitudes?

They are now. It's a just a throwaway expression.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Those who leave are apostates they were not actually Christians
They were religious but never saved.
1jn2:19

 

[FireDragon76]

Those who leave are apostates they were not actually Christians
They were religious but never saved.
1jn2:19

What a load of nonsense.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

ananda,

Other reasons include: claiming BIblical promises that never manifested, being asked apologetics questions that I had no good answer for (even after much study), etc.

I have not thought about being a Christian again, except I do miss some of its social aspects

.[/QUOTE]
you were never a Christian. You were in a false name it and claim it church.
If you do not repent you will be thinking about it at the white throne judgment. God will not be mocked.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

What a load of nonsense.

For those who believe the scriptures, they know exactly what the verse means.

 

[awitch]

Those who leave are apostates they were not actually Christians
They were religious but never saved.
1jn2:19

No True Scotsman. When you just can't deal with the idea that people can walk away from the thing you've invested your life in.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

No True Scotsman. When you just can't deal with the idea that people can walk away from the thing you've invested your life in.

God is the author and finisher of faith in true Christians.
What is described in this thread is people who have tried religion in the strength of their own flesh.
The flesh grows weary and they cast aside their false profession and go into paganism or a cult.

 

[awitch]

God is the author and finisher of faith in true Christians.

Then who are you to try overrule god and dictate who is and isn't a Christian?
Will you repent for your sin?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Then who are you to try overrule god and dictate who is and isn't a Christian?
Will you repent for your sin?

I do not have to know their heart. I can read their posts. They themselves say they do not believe.
I myself am a guilty sinner who has asked Jesus to have mercy upon me and grant me repentance and faith...He has.

 

[Zoness]

Here, I'll ask it as a direct question; that way, under CF rules, you should be allowed to answer.

I know that the pagan religions vary in their specifics, but as I understand it, some varieties of paganism invoke gods by name (Greek gods, Norse gods, etc.) or cast spells. If you follow one of the varieties that involves gods: Do you see these gods as beings that actually exist; or do you see them as names for the spiritual aspects of the sea, the sun, etc.; or do you see them just as images that help you focus aspects of your personality? Do those who invoke, e.g., Greek gods think that those who invoke Norse gods are mistaken about reality, or just using different words for the same reality? And if you cast spells, do you see that as genuinely shaping the world outside yourself, or do you just see it as a way of naming and focusing your own energies?

If my wording of the questions is completely out to lunch, feel free to tell me that and to tell me what I should have asked.

(cloudyday2, I hope I've captured some of what you were getting at.)

At various points I have been a full blown polytheist, doing invocations and giving offerings to specific gods. These I am probably more Pantheist or soft polytheist at best. I have a number of gods I still feel quite fondly for. Nowadays I see them as conceptual ideas that can be described but maybe not fully understand; their aspects in nature and humanity are how we relate to them. I'm less confident in their literal existence these days.

Syncreticism was extremely common in the ancient world where the concept of pantheons is a relatively modern invention (of the 19th century). The Greeks could accept or even invoke the Norse gods if they so chose, it was mostly a matter of understanding the personalities of differing gods in the context of the culture and not tied to ideas such as ethnicity which are also relatively modern inventions. We know how far religion syncreticized; Egyptian gods highly merged with Greek ones during the Ptolemaic dynasty (think Serapis); We've seen Celtic deities syncreticized with Roman ones (think Sulis-Minerva) as far away as Bath and Gloucester, England. We can look to the ancient region of Bactria (as far away as Afghanistan) where Hellenic Greco-Buddhism flourished until the late antique period.

These days there's nothing seen as wrong with "combining" (for lack of a better term) gods from different pantheons since that was not a concept that had much meaning historically. Back when I was formally polytheist I never got the impression the gods cared. Matters of orthopraxy (right practice) factored in higher than orthodoxy (right belief).

The question of magic is somewhat separated but relevant; most polytheistic reconstructionist traditions do not explicitly call for the use of magic. This is in contrast to neopagan movements such as Wicca that are open to synthesizing magical systems (such as Western Hermetic Magic or the Ars Goetia) with divine intercession. As a further distinction, witchcraft is a practice and not a religion. You could be a Christian and practice witchcraft in theory (though the Bible doesn't like it) you could be a Kemetic (Egyptian) polytheist and practice it or even an atheist and practice it. Witchcraft does not lean on specific divinity for its method of working forces in the world.

I do not practice witchcraft these days, my rituals are more structured and organized around seasonal events and principles of the human experience. That features heavily in my humanistic integration of ethics and epistemology into my pagan framework of viewing the cosmos.

 

[Zoness]

No True Scotsman. When you just can't deal with the idea that people can walk away from the thing you've invested your life in.

I've not really found much in engaging with those types, they're just looking for a fight. Though there's that creeping fear of what's on the other side of the big questions; they often shy away from it because like you said....too much time invested.

But diving off of that deep end can be so rewarding.

 

[Zoness]

TW, this is one of the issues I wish I could understand about paganism/witchcraft/occult. I get the impression that you guys are choosing your gods and practices like you might choose a pair of shoes. Sometimes I have heard it claimed that religions didn't care about belief until Christianity, but I don't think that is entirely correct. The modern revival of these religions confuses me. ... So it is a shame if the rules of CF make it difficult for you guys to explain your beliefs. They are interesting to me (but very puzzling LOL)

I can see why this would be confusing; most of us were raised in a very "take it or leave it" religious paradigm where you had to worship one and only one god because he would send you to hell if you did not. You better hope you had the right understanding of him!

Polytheism is decidedly looser and could not function in such as exclusionary framework for socio-political reasons. As populations integrated with those who had differing gods, they had to recognize that such gods probably exist for the other in as equal capacity as their own. As the empires grow up there come more elaborate frameworks for integrating them, such as Ptolemy's reign in Egypt or the Roman expansion into Celtic Gaul, Iberia and Dacia. The Babylonians had to do this to a lesser degree.

Generally speaking its a process of self-discovery where your immortal soul is not on the line and if you're a polytheist; you generally believe that different gods have different focuses in life. Why would you need them in equal measure at all times? Do we not have shifts of needs, moods, priorities and values? It's also key to note that the gods are generally not seen as perfect (by some human standard) or omnipotent; they're agents acting on the platform of the universe and have their own distinct motivations. This is hard to parse from a monotheistic concept but becomes more intuitive as you explore the philosophical arguments.

I know nobody asked but I might suggest John Michael Greer's World Full of Gods for a decent philosophical argument in favor of polythiesm. It's not really out to convert anyone because that doesn't have any connotation the same way it would in monotheist circles but its a fantastic rundown of arguments explaining polytheism.

 

[FireDragon76]

God is the author and finisher of faith in true Christians.
What is described in this thread is people who have tried religion in the strength of their own flesh.

That's your ideology talking. It's comforting for you to believe that, rather than to be open to the different experiences of other people.

There's a Buddhist nun named Pannavati who is a former Christian pastor. Becoming a Buddhist nun had nothing to do with not valuing her Christian past. Likewise, in the documentary Walk with Me, about Thich Nhat Hanh's Plum Village in southern France, one of the monks there is also a Catholic priest.

Some of us find we have approached the limits of what we can do in a particular faith tradition and we want to live life more deeply.