How many are saved?

JohnClay said:

So does "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"

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Why are you quoting me as saying something I didn't?

JohnClay said:

Sorry I was having trouble with nested quotes on my phone

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What are you wanting to say / asking / commenting on?

ChristopherHays said:

I don’t think there is any Christian denomination that follows the Ten Commandments.


1: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

doesn't that imply there are other gods?

2: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth... for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation”

You all really dropped the ball with this one. Christians make all sorts of statues and drawings of everything. Also, you’re great grand children are cursed if you paint something.

3: “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”

Again, Christians do this all the time. Why would god even care though? He seems to get offended way too easily.

4: “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all
thy work”

Sabbath has always been Saturday. Christians work on Saturday and Sunday all the time. Even something like picking up sticks on sabbath warrants the death sentence from god, but most Christians don’t even care.

5 “Honor thy father and thy mother”

We’re half way through and some moral teaching is finally here!!! What about parents who abuse their children though? God needed to elaborate on this more. The Bible never condemns child abuse or even acknowledges it to my knowledge. Children should not always honor their father an mother. That’s obvious.

6 “Thou shalt not kill.”

I agree with this one... too bad it doesn’t apply to the Canaanites or anyone else the Israelites felt like murdering in the Old Testament. It also didn’t apply to Muslims during the crusades, Indians during the inquisition, or anyone accused of witchcraft.

I’m just gonna stop there. Not trying to write a whole book, but the 10 commandments aren’t really that great. If I was writing a moral code, I’d mention slavery, abuse, discrimination, women’s rights, and a host of other issues the Bible conveniently avoids.

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Again, my response is:

The Righterzpen said:

for those ignorant of what the Scriptures actually say; those facts don't seem to matter.

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You don't seem to know history very well either.

The Righterzpen said:

Again, my response is:



You don't seem to know history very well either.

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Ive quoted the Bible several times, how can you say I don’t know what it says? What makes you think I don’t know my history?

ChristopherHays said:

Ive quoted the Bible several times, how can you say I don’t know what it says? What makes you think I don’t know my history?

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It's pretty obvious from your responses; but of course I don't expect you to be able to see that.

The preaching of the gospel is foolishness to them that perish.

(Instead of accusing God; why don't you ask legitimate questions?)

JohnClay said:

I mistakenly said the quote was from you when it was from ChristopherHays

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Yes, I realize that. What point are you wanting to make?

The Righterzpen said:

It's pretty obvious from your responses; but of course I don't expect you to be able to see that.

The preaching of the gospel is foolishness to them that perish.

(Instead of accusing God; why don't you ask legitimate questions?)

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Tell me one historical point that I’ve misrepresented? What specifically did I say to demonstrate a lack of biblical knowledge? I’m quite confident I can back up everything I’ve said.

JohnClay said:

So does "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"

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No, that’s obviously referring to one god, but there are several passages in the Old Testament that make an interesting case for biblical polytheism.

ChristopherHays said:

Tell me one historical point that I’ve misrepresented? What specifically did I say to demonstrate a lack of biblical knowledge? I’m quite confident I can back up everything I’ve said.

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Saying Scripture condones rape. Saying Scripture condones slavery.

Do you have any idea what the Hebrew means when it says not to make graven images or why it says that?

Do you understand the difference between law and redemption?
Do you know what role law plays in God's salvation plan?
Do you understand the difference between killing and murder? Do you realize the Hebrew in Exodus makes a distinction between the two?

What purpose do wars serve in God's sovereign plan? Did you know the Bible actually answers that question?

I could go on; but as I've said before:
For those who are ignorant of what Scripture actually says; those facts don't seem to matter.

The Righterzpen said:

Saying Scripture condones rape. Saying Scripture condones slavery.

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“Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.“ - Moses (Numbers 31:18)

“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.” (Deuteronomy 20:10-)

“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her“
(Deuteronomy 21:10-)

that’s god more or less commanding slavery, rape, and murder. No girl would willingly have relations with her captors, and “forced labor” under threat of death is definitely slavery. It’s extremely intellectually dishonest to call this anything other than rape and slavery. Don’t passages like that at least make you uncomfortable? If they don’t mean what they seem to say, why didn’t god explain it better?

The Righterzpen said:

Do you have any idea what the Hebrew means when it says not to make graven images or why it says that?

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I focused more on Greek when I was a Christian, but I’m acquainted with Hebrew. I’m pretty sure it plainly means not to make sculptures and drawings. I don’t see where the text allows the context to be restricted to images for worship. Even so, many Christians pray to statues and images. Christians don’t even agree with themselves on this translation, so why don’t you settle it amongst yourselves and then come tell me what it means?

The Righterzpen said:

Do you know what role law plays in God's salvation plan?

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To set an impossible standard and keep sheep populations down? I’m familiar with all 613 laws so don’t even start with the ‘perfect standard’ stuff. The laws of the Torah aren’t that hard to follow, they’re just stupid.

The Righterzpen said:

Do you understand the difference between killing and murder? Do you realize the Hebrew in Exodus makes a distinction between the two?

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I do, but I think invading neighboring cities and killing them when they refuse to be slaves qualifies as murder. So does killing someone for picking up sticks, killing people who sleep with foreigners, killing girls who can’t prove virginity etc.

The Righterzpen said:

I could go on; but as I've said before:
For those who are ignorant of what Scripture actually says; those facts don't seem to matter.

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I know what scripture says better than most Christians. I can quote entire chapters from memory in 3 languages... how much more studying should I do before I’m no longer “ignorant”?

JohnClay said:

Yes it is referring to one God but it implies there are other gods - those for some other people. If there was clearly one god then it is pointless to say it is for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

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If it said the ‘god’s’ of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob than I’d agree, but I think the context is pretty clear here. This isn’t an argument I would often make, but there are some very interesting potentially polytheistic verses like “let us make man in our image” and “worship no other gods before me”. There’s also allot of “we” speech from god(s) in the Tower of Babel and flood stories. The best case against biblical monotheism can be made from the Torah, but psalms and other books also suggest other gods exist. Example:

"God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment." (Ps 82:1)

"For the LORD is a great God,
and a great King above all gods." (Ps 95:3).

JohnClay said:

If murder is defined as "unlawful killing" then the case it isn't murder could be made.
I suggest you instead focus on "genocide":
Deuteronomy 20:16-17:
"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you."

BTW I know Christians who see no problem and in fact thought God was justified in punishing the Jews when they didn't obey the command for genocide.

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Are you a Christian? I can’t figure it out lol.

God also punished Saul when he committed genocide but kept the animals alive. Apparently the animals were just as “evil in the sight of the lord” as the little babies from that nation.

Germany made it legal to kill Jews, but I still call that murder. It’s the same with 90% of the killing the Israelites and god did in the Old Testament. Call it ‘lawful killing of children’ if you want, it’s still ugly.

JohnClay said:

The use of "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" is used a few times. If there was only one god in the world it seems odd to repeatedly refer to those three people. I'm saying that it implies there are other gods - those that are for other people.
They don't seem to say that God is also the God of Adam and Noah, etc. I've heard of a concept that in parts of the Bible God is the God of a tribe but I can't find the technical term for this.


Christians might say that this shows that the idea of the trinity was in the Old Testament rather than being a NT invention.

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Okay I get what your saying now. Haven’t thought of it before, but I guess it is odd that they had to specify this god was “the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” Interesting point

I’ve heard that trinity explanation before too, but it’s pretty weak in my opinion. No reader would have any concept of the trinity until the second century, so why would the author write it like that with no explanation? The other verses that imply Israel’s god is better than the other gods can’t be explained by the trinity either.