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How many are saved?

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by JohnClay, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    You compared sinners to dogs that don't know how to play fetch. I gave you an example of the horrendous nature of sin.

    And speaking of pedophilia / murderers. Why does that offend you so much? If there's no God; then there's nothing to be accountable to and "anything goes". Is that not the end result of moral relativism?

    Who determines morals any ways? Are they determined by society or are they determined by a Higher Authority? (Be careful how you answer that question!)

    If you say society determines morals; then basically morals boil down to who has the most power is the one who's always "right"; because, why is your opinion more right than the guy who says you need to die because you have blue eyes?

    You leave yourself with no authority above self to appeal to. And if you just happen to be the one on the muzzle side of the gun; well, sucks to be you!

    Everyone is accountable for their sin. How much sin does a 5 year old commit? What about 2 year old? Have you ever wondered; what if 2 year olds were 6 foot and 200lbs? How many parents would be dead?

    Deuteronomy does not condone rape. I've heard that one before. That is nothing but evil men's wishing to accuse God of sin. The passage you cite doesn't say what you allege it does.

    Real repentance and faith goes far beyond "saying magic words". A child molester who truly repents is indeed truly sorry for what they did; not just sorry they got caught. Big difference there!

    It's not "justice" for sinless person (Christ) to take on someone's sin. Yet that's exactly what happened!

    Yet if the afterlife is as real (or more so) than this life (seeing how this life is only temporary) than people won to the kingdom via money spent is a good investment. Much better investment matter of fact than something that passes away in the end.

    There's plenty of unbelievers out there who want to make this life their paradise; why has that not happened yet? God knows they out number people like me.

    I can deal with coal. You will never over come eternal damnation!
     
  2. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    I think you misunderstood or wrongly dismissed everything I said.

    It’s extremely offensive to suggest I’m okay with rape and murder because I don’t follow your religion. I’ll gladly explain in detail the real source of morality, but I think you’ll automatically dismiss it anyway... so I’ll make it short.

    We evolved in family groups. Our ancestors who stayed in the group were more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Individuals or groups who stole, killed, etc. would not be likely to survive or successfully raise offspring. Everything we consider good or bad can be found in nature. Most often, animal behaviors that align with our morality come from social mammals. Basically, anything that improves the groups survival is good and anything that hurts the group is bad. Rape, slavery, bigotry etc. are more developed moral wrongs, but it’s not hard to see why societies that embraced them were outcompeted by those that didn’t.

    you said “morals boil down to who has the most power is the one who's always right” this is wrong because we understand power continuously shifts, and we want our offspring to survive that shift... so we don’t abuse power and we consider it wrong when others abuse power.

    Basically, what people consider wrong is a combination of their evolution and experience. Because variation is a necessary part of evolution, 3% of the population will have varying moral understanding. we call these people sociopaths. Their existence makes perfect sense with evolution and no sense with god. Why would god give us moral absolutes and then make millions is sociopaths to screw things up?


    Didn’t want to write that much, but it’s a complicated issue. Not gonna do it right now but I’d love to explain why the Bible absolutely does condone rape.
     
  3. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    So basically you are saying morality comes from society. Yet you do not see how what the majority of humanity sees as "morally good" does not substantiate "survival of the fittest".

    Which still leaves the question of where does morality actually originate?
     
  4. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Doesn't work for me, this is not my permanent home. And this place will never compare to paradise.
    M-Bob
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  5. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    No, it has been God's will nit nine should perish but I think the remnant 1/3 is the number of people that will be saved. 7.5 billion x 1/3 = 2.5 billion. The numbers are just about there for His return. Remember faith is a gift that God gives us at an appointed time. Some have great faith and some are weak, yet what is the really the basic requirement? The gospel is stated in one sentence: That Jesus died for our sins and rose in the third day according to the scriptures. If you believe that, you will be saved. Faith in Jesus, through Grace, not by works, a gift ... so that no one can boast.
    Everyone that is in the Book of Life will be saved, and that was created before the foundation of the world.
     
  6. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    morality and society are evolving with humanity. They’re all products of evolution, which is selecting for group preservation in this case.

    Morality is often determined by majority opinion, but in reverse. Those who share an opinion that makes their society flourish will outcompete other society’s to become a majority.
     
  7. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Except if you study history though; you see morality fluctuates with type of religious influence. Look at the late 18th century and the Great Awakening that took place in Britain and North America. One massive religious revival spared Britain and her North American colonies from a French Revolution style collapse of society. Moral conviction brings order. Where there is immorality there is corruption and anarchy. That's not "evolving with humanity".

    "Survival of the fittest" always dictates that the one with the most power is "right". Even just a surface gloss over of history demonstrates that. That factor doesn't account for how the moral pendulum in societies swings back and forth.
     
  8. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    You can’t account for the moral pendulum swinging back and forth. It’s expected with my world view, but impossible to explain with yours. Why is it that 40,000 “Christian” denominations can’t agree on morality? If God is the basis for morality than we should all share the same ideas. When you read the Bible you’re not using it as a moral guide. You think slavery is wrong because your society is morally superior to biblically societies, not because God told you it’s wrong.

    Morality is partly ‘survival of the fittest’. Good moral ideas will outcompete bad moral ideas. Our morality has had the same basic values since we started living in groups, we’ve just expanded morality to encompass larger groups. We started with small families, then communities, then nations and races, and finally we’re recognizing all humanity as one group. The greatest moral struggles of modernity have been with this last step. In America we abolished slavery because we allowed different races into our group. Germany was unable to make that moral leap, but their society was outcompeted by those of us who did. We live at an extremely dangerous time, because morality has not evolved to match our intellect. We now have nuclear weapons in the same world where racism and nationalism still exist. We need to accelerate our progress toward a morality that encompasses all humans. This will be done by eradicating the racist, nationalist, and yes religious barriers that keep people divided.
     
  9. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    ...if anything, I guess we can surmise that it won't be more than 49% of the total human population that has ever lived or will live. Then again, it would be kind of strange if what Jesus meant to say was "the 51% are called, but only the 49% will be chosen." :sorry:
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  10. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    What makes you think so? Denominations are not necessarily a deviation in morality!
     
  11. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    I was probably being generous. Each denomination can’t even decide amongst themselves what god’s moral code is. The fact is that every moral dilemma you could think of has sincere Christians on both sides... everyone from slave owners, male supremacists, abortion doctors etc. think god and the Bible is on their side.
     
  12. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Yes I can. Revival is driven by the Holy Spirit bringing people to repentance.

    ?? I don't think there is a Christian denomination out there that would disagree with the 10 commandments. (Which are the basic tenants of morality.) Matter of fact, I don't think there is a culture anywhere in the world who would disagree with them. At least as far as human behavior toward other humans.

    What sinners think is immaterial; but for those ignorant of what the Scripture really says; that fact doesn't seem to matter.

    There are passages in the Bible that forbid slavery. But like I said before; for those ignorant of what the Scriptures actually say; those facts don't seem to matter.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  13. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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    Most don't rest on the Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday)
     
  14. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    And where did you learn all of this? :dontcare:
     
  15. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    It's generally traditional understanding that the "sabbath" was changed to Sunday. (Which there is some Greek New Testament linguistic support for that conclusion. But that's the subject of another thread.) Yet for centuries most people didn't work on Sundays either. Only "work of mercy" was allowed. (Hospitals, police, fire, etc.)
     
  16. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    I don’t think there is any Christian denomination that follows the Ten Commandments.


    1: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

    doesn't that imply there are other gods?

    2: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth... for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation”

    You all really dropped the ball with this one. Christians make all sorts of statues and drawings of everything. Also, you’re great grand children are cursed if you paint something.

    3: “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”

    Again, Christians do this all the time. Why would god even care though? He seems to get offended way too easily.

    4: “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all
    thy work”

    Sabbath has always been Saturday. Christians work on Saturday and Sunday all the time. Even something like picking up sticks on sabbath warrants the death sentence from god, but most Christians don’t even care.

    5 “Honor thy father and thy mother”

    We’re half way through and some moral teaching is finally here!!! What about parents who abuse their children though? God needed to elaborate on this more. The Bible never condemns child abuse or even acknowledges it to my knowledge. Children should not always honor their father an mother. That’s obvious.

    6 “Thou shalt not kill.”

    I agree with this one... too bad it doesn’t apply to the Canaanites or anyone else the Israelites felt like murdering in the Old Testament. It also didn’t apply to Muslims during the crusades, Indians during the inquisition, or anyone accused of witchcraft.

    I’m just gonna stop there. Not trying to write a whole book, but the 10 commandments aren’t really that great. If I was writing a moral code, I’d mention slavery, abuse, discrimination, women’s rights, and a host of other issues the Bible conveniently avoids.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  17. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    I’ve probably read 100 books on human morality. I’m also formally educated on animal behavior in the context of evolutionary history. I’m afraid I don’t have the time or eloquence to explain the secular basis for morality myself, but I could recommend a few books if you’d like :)
     
  18. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    ...and you're just now mentioning that you have a degree? After all this time?
     
  19. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    Arguments should rise and fall on their own merit, not their messenger’s. Frankly the state of our affordable universities are embarrassing anyway.
     
  20. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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    So does "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
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