How long has man been created.

[GenemZ]

Luke 6: 39, 43
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Hmmm, very interesting. Christ using something NOT literally true in order to teach something that is very true. I thought that was taboo in scripture. Evidently, this scripture has served more then one purpose.

The Bible tells us its a parable.

 

[GenemZ]

Yes I did.
If you can't back up the 'good' book with independent sources, it means nothing.

So convince me evolution is wrong.

So convince me God does not exist.

 

[wayseer]

So convince me God does not exist.

No one can convince you that God does not exist apart from yourself.

Neither can anyone convince you that God exists apart from yourself.

The issue is not about logic or rational thought it is about faith - a faith that is not only illogical but more often quite absurd.

So, it does not matter how long man has been created or if he was created or helped along to craw out of the primeval swamps - because faith has little, if anything, to do with the natural world.

 

[Blue sapphire]

Tell us? Does it really matter if it says, "was?" Or? "Became?" ​

If the reader knows what the words in the entire passage indicates, and get their eyes off the false issue? We can move on and discover what treasures of knowledge God's Word has buried for us to find.​

In Christ, GeneZ

Ok...I have often thought about what God has been doing for eternity....I mean.... that is a long time.

So If He created Adam 6000 years ago....what was He doing before that. Are you suggesting the Bible reveals something about this period.

Please elaborate.

 

[GenemZ]

No one can convince you that God does not exist apart from yourself.

Neither can anyone convince you that God exists apart from yourself.

Wrong.. God convinces a man that God exists. If you convince yourself that God exists, you end up with only wishful thinking combined with a strong tendency towards superstition and fear.

The issue is not about logic or rational thought it is about faith - a faith that is not only illogical but more often quite absurd.

It all depends on what kind of Bible teaching one has been given. There is a great deal of Bible teaching that is absurd and totally illogical. Those who teach that way accept that faith must be that way. It becomes a system of obedience to a system created by men, in the name of stupidity.

2 Peter 3:16
"Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters.
There are some things in those [epistles of Paul]
that are difficult to understand, which
the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue
to their own utter destruction, just as
[they distort and misinterpret] the rest of
the Scriptures."
​

Jesus said that we will have the poor always with us. In like manner, some we will always have with us will always be ignoramuses. Pompous jackasses who have no understanding of God's Word from a perspective of an academic discipline which must be developed like any science must be. Many preachers are an embarrassment to the truth. They are no more than spiritual street fighters who finds his own mob to cheer him on. Or. pacifists who fear fighting the good fight, and will substitute good works as a means to salvation. Both are idiocy in the light of God's Word.


Now, on the other hand?

1 Corinthians 2:14
"The man without the Spirit does not accept
the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot
understand them, because they are
spiritually discerned."


​

The Greek says closer to that, that faith is "moronic" to the man who is without a living spiritual life.


Religion and faith are not equals. Religious men are not spiritual. They are soulishly superstitious, fearful of the unknown, and filled with good intentions that they put their hope in of winning God's approval... That is, if there is a God that they fear might exist.


Faith is a logic uniquely of its own domain. One must have the gift for faith given from God.

Ever see some undisciplined person of low intelligence who mocks what they refer to as an egghead? Likewise, unregenerate man mocks genuine faith because he has no gift for it. The unregenerate man may have an IQ of 150, but when it comes to faith he becomes like the low life mocker. The spiritually dead man can not understand faith. He can understand religion, though. He sees right through it if he's smart.

Faith is a gift from God. Just like the understanding for science is a gift. Just like being musical is a gift. Those without the gift can only marvel at these abilities. But, faith is a gift we are not born with like a natural gift. We must be born again to receive this gift.

So, it does not matter how long man has been created or if he was created or helped along to craw out of the primeval swamps - because faith has little, if anything, to do with the natural world.

Really? You sure you have any (real) faith at all? I am not sure you are in any position to evaluate what real faith is. Coming from a religious background does not mean one has faith. A man might have memorized what people who do have faith will accept.

Colossians 1:15-17
"He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things
were created: things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers
or rulers or authorities; all things were created by
him and for him. He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together."
​

You even know what faith really is? By your own words, it appears not to be the case. Your words all cry out to say that you haven't even a clue as to what real faith is. It is religion that is absurd and illogical. Superstition and fear is what enslaves men to be religious. To the man with the Spirit, faith is a way of thinking that keeps him free from both religion and humanism. The old and the new ways that men's minds dwell in outside of a living relationship with God.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,
and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

God must convince man that God exists!

Man can not convince himself that God exists. Religion tries. Religion runs on the presumption that God "might" exist, and demands that men live according to a fear that God might turn out to be real. Religion always re-creates God in man's image, and places demands on men which are no more than the traditions of men.




In Christ, GeneZ


.

 

[GenemZ]

Ok...I have often thought about what God has been doing for eternity....I mean.... that is a long time.

So If He created Adam 6000 years ago....what was He doing before that. Are you suggesting the Bible reveals something about this period.

Please elaborate.

The Bible reveals quite a bit about what took place before this creation was brought into being. It helps explain why Satan and his angels having been sentenced to the Lake of Fire, are still free to do what they do at this present time.

Why would a perfect God, who makes no mistakes? Sentence his creatures to the Lake of Fire? And, then not have them there right now? But, instead, allows them to remain free of their execution to be able to cause heart aches and pain for mankind today? Why is Satan now allowed into Heaven to accuse believers before God, any time of day?

Without understanding what the Bible reveals about life before this present creation we could NEVER begin to truly understand why God right now allows for his life and evil to co-exist as it does.

But, that would be for a different thread. It would completely hijack this one if it were to be expounded in detail. That would be something for later, perhaps.


Grace and peace, GeneZ



.

 

[JediMobius]

"Evidence" is designed for the literal (i.e. tangible, concrete, and the objective) not the metaphorical which is based off interpretation. It appears that if you are interpreting that scripture as literal then YOU are the one that needs to provide "evidence". Thus far, if you are a God-fearer, then the literal interpretation of that scripture has been disproven by virue of the fact that there is no "literal" evidence which would suggest that man was somehow zapped here on earth in an evolutionary blink of an eye. The evidence suggests evolution was the means which, incidentally, also runs in harmony with the scripture Genez provided. You want to see this proof? Go on an archeological dig, catch up on your paleontology and science. I'm not going to waste my time trying to pry open a clamshell of a mind that denies those things which can be palpated by the hands and seen with the eyes.

Luke 6: 39, 43
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Hmmm, very interesting. Christ using something NOT literally true in order to teach something that is very true. I thought that was taboo in scripture. Evidently, this scripture has served more then one purpose.

You completely misunderstand me, sir.

 

[JediMobius]

Faith is a logic uniquely of its own domain. One must have the gift for faith given from God.

It is religion that is absurd and illogical. Superstition and fear is what enslaves men to be religious. To the man with the Spirit, faith is a way of thinking that keeps him free from both religion and humanism. The old and the new ways that men's minds dwell in outside of a living relationship with God.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[mpok1519]

But in fact you believe in magic more than we in your beliefs of life forming on Earth. Spontaneous generation was disproven. But evolution says it had to happen, whereas, the Bible says an intelligent being created life. How is an intelligent being creating life magic?

if that intellegent agent was extra terrestria alien instead of an all-knowing invisible being that lives in a alternatve dimension, then yes, ID wouldn't be magic. But, since the id most people speak of is infact an invisible alternatve universe living omnipotent omniscient all loving God, then, it fits te definition of magic to many people. Spontaneous generation has not been disproven; they've bombarded protoplasm with various frequencies of energy to synthesize rna randomly; spontaneous generation is very very possible according to the recent tests. But, this is not magic. the spontaneous rna generation actually happened, and it was scientists, not magicians beind it.

ID by aliens = intellegent design
ID by God = magic

I sometimes wonder how Christians can dismiss the main reason for Christ having to come to earth to sacrifice himself for our sins, which was Adam bringing sin to the world. For that matter, when did man actually awaken and have a soul placed in Him according to Christians who believe in evolution? Does science tell us that?

A soul? Can science even prove people have souls? No; infact, if souls did exist, I believe there'd be some way to test and observe it in a clinically controlled setting. Also, if souls exist, why can a soul not exist within other intellegent beings, such as blue whales, chimpanzee and dolphins, all animals that have exhibited intellegence beyond man humans' own capacities. Animals show the same wants, needs, desires, love, envy, hate, anger, wrath, etc that humans exhibit. Animals by all of our standards would also have souls imo. If souls do exist, however, I believe they've always been with us, even in our ancestors. A cave men with a soul? Yes. I don't think its impossible, granted if souls do infact exist.

okay; lets say theres no way to prove humans have been around for more than 6000 years (and it has been proven that humans are aound 120-150,000 years ago), what about the geologic evidence that supports the fact that the earth itself has been here for billions of years?

 

[Blue sapphire]

The Bible reveals quite a bit about what took place before this creation was brought into being. It helps explain why Satan and his angels having been sentenced to the Lake of Fire, are still free to do what they do at this present time.

Why would a perfect God, who makes no mistakes? Sentence his creatures to the Lake of Fire? And, then not have them there right now? But, instead, allows them to remain free of their execution to be able to cause heart aches and pain for mankind today? Why is Satan now allowed into Heaven to accuse believers before God, any time of day?

Without understanding what the Bible reveals about life before this present creation we could NEVER begin to truly understand why God right now allows for his life and evil to co-exist as it does.

But, that would be for a different thread. It would completely hijack this one if it were to be expounded in detail. That would be something for later, perhaps.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

Ok.... i agree it would hijack this thread....so I will start another thread in this same forum...apologetics. ( Before Adam was created....what does the Bible reveal about God.) This is an interesting question and worth understanding more if there is more light that can be shed from the Bible.

Satan and the angels were created before Adam...this we know. Some are fallen creatures...still allowed to exist and influence this world.....so as this must be part of Gods plan....What does the Bible reveal about this plan....and how does it fit perfectly with His plan for man.

 

[richterforest]

if that intellegent agent was extra terrestria alien instead of an all-knowing invisible being that lives in a alternatve dimension, then yes, ID wouldn't be magic. But, since the id most people speak of is infact an invisible alternatve universe living omnipotent omniscient all loving God, then, it fits te definition of magic to many people. Spontaneous generation has not been disproven; they've bombarded protoplasm with various frequencies of energy to synthesize rna randomly; spontaneous generation is very very possible according to the recent tests. But, this is not magic. the spontaneous rna generation actually happened, and it was scientists, not magicians beind it.

ID by aliens = intellegent design
ID by God = magic


A soul? Can science even prove people have souls? No; infact, if souls did exist, I believe there'd be some way to test and observe it in a clinically controlled setting. Also, if souls exist, why can a soul not exist within other intellegent beings, such as blue whales, chimpanzee and dolphins, all animals that have exhibited intellegence beyond man humans' own capacities. Animals show the same wants, needs, desires, love, envy, hate, anger, wrath, etc that humans exhibit. Animals by all of our standards would also have souls imo. If souls do exist, however, I believe they've always been with us, even in our ancestors. A cave men with a soul? Yes. I don't think its impossible, granted if souls do infact exist.


okay; lets say theres no way to prove humans have been around for more than 6000 years (and it has been proven that humans are aound 120-150,000 years ago), what about the geologic evidence that supports the fact that the earth itself has been here for billions of years?

The geologic strata, as set up by science, is not found intact in any one place that I know of. In some places they are mixed up or mixed together. But, I have never stated i dont believe in an old earth.

 

[mpok1519]

no, the geologic strata was set up by the natural geologic processes, not science. Science didn't say "Okay, that plate there, this plate here, that volcano there." Layers of sediment can be dated by analyzing levels of silicate, carbon, etc, and comparing them to other layers, organizing them by time, date, age, etc. Science dint do these things, earth's natural processes of billions of years did that.

Of course geological strata is not "intact" (when the earth is one giant intact rock, really, with a soft warm chewy center) but it theres evidence all over that earth's land masses have been moving by lieu of plate techtonics, but we can trace their movements.

..........

one doesnt need to believe truth in order for the truth to still be true.

 

[herev]

Ok...I have often thought about what God has been doing for eternity....I mean.... that is a long time.

So If He created Adam 6000 years ago....what was He doing before that. Are you suggesting the Bible reveals something about this period.

Please elaborate.

you're going to wish you hadn't asked that

 

[praisejahupeople]

Spontaneous generation has not been disproven

Strange assertion.Might want to look up Louis Pasteur again.

they've bombarded protoplasm with various frequencies of energy to synthesize rna randomly; spontaneous generation is very very possible according to the recent tests. But, this is not magic.

Indeed,looks like they are trying to replicate intelligent design.

the spontaneous rna generation actually happened, and it was scientists, not magicians beind it.

Way way more to it than that.I love how abiogenesis believers try to make the creation of life from chemicals seem so simple.

okay; lets say theres no way to prove humans have been around for more than 6000 years

Oh, you have taken into account whats been said on this thread.

(and it has been proven that humans are aound 120-150,000 years ago),

Hmmm maybe not.

what about the geologic evidence that supports the fact that the earth itself has been here for billions of years?

In no way lessens or dilutes Gods power. You can throw around the word "billions" with seeming ease and accuracy when its an enormous number.However you could be right.
Im happy to say the earth is old.

 

[fwwid]

The Bible tells us its a parable.

Yeah, Christ did speak symbolically an awful lot huh? Wonder where He learned that from...hmmmm.

John 8: 28

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

 

[fwwid]

No one can convince you that God does not exist apart from yourself.

Neither can anyone convince you that God exists apart from yourself.

The issue is not about logic or rational thought it is about faith - a faith that is not only illogical but more often quite absurd.

So, it does not matter how long man has been created or if he was created or helped along to craw out of the primeval swamps - because faith has little, if anything, to do with the natural world.

Exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. How we got here is not nearly as important as why we're here and where we'll be going. Fundamental to faith is the lack of evidence in the natural world that you mention. If faith were based on physical, testible, falsifiable evidence, it wouldn't be called faith, it would be called knowledge. Miracles, "evidence", as well as revelation can help substantiate our faith but it is definitely not necessary, indespensable or mandatory.

John 20: 29
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Matt. 16: 17
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[GenemZ]

Yeah, Christ did speak symbolically an awful lot huh? Wonder where He learned that from...hmmmm.

He let us know when he did. Your point indicates that you have been missing the point.


There was another point you are missing...

Matthew 13:10-12
"The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you
speak to the people in parables?"

He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the

kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but

not to them.



Whoever has will be given more, and he will

have an abundance. Whoever does not have,

even what he has will be taken from him."​

God will always get the truth of the message to those who's heart is right before God. They will have received an abundance of truth after God is through with their soul. In contrast.. The truth of the matter will be kept from those who are not right with God. They may think they have something, but it will not stand.



.

 

[fwwid]

He let us know when he did. Your point indicates that you have been missing the point.


There was another point you are missing...

Matthew 13:10-12
"The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you
speak to the people in parables?"

He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the

kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but

not to them.



Whoever has will be given more, and he will

have an abundance. Whoever does not have,

even what he has will be taken from him."​

God will always get the truth of the message to those who's heart is right before God. They will have received an abundance of truth after God is through with their soul. In contrast.. The truth of the matter will be kept from those who are not right with God. They may think they have something, but it will not stand.



.

You're missing the point. The purpose of the Bible was not to be a historical document, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" God does not HAVE to tell us when He's speaking literally, symbolically, metaphorically or through parables. When He speaks, the truth is given. It's important to step outside of the letter of the law and partake in the truth found through the spirit of the law. Christ understood this principle, many Pharisees did not. To authoritatively dictate that all scripture by default is a historical fact sets limits on your ability to fully understand the "truth" being taught and is presumptuous at best.

 

[GenemZ]

You're missing the point. The purpose of the Bible was not to be a historical document,

Archeological discoveries have been debunking that belief for a good many times over the years. The Bible does contain historical fact, but that's not its only intention.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" God does not HAVE to tell us when He's speaking literally, symbolically, metaphorically or through parables. When He speaks, the truth is given. It's important to step outside of the letter of the law and partake in the truth found through the spirit of the law. Christ understood this principle, many Pharisees did not. To authoritatively dictate that all scripture by default is a historical fact sets limits on your ability to fully understand the "truth" being taught and is presumptuous at best.

Notice something in what you said? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction..."


For correction?

Genesis 2:7
"Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being."
​

Not everyone is willing, nor wanting, to be corrected. God did not stop Adam from eating of the forbidden fruit... nor will God stop us from eating at the wrong tree of knowledge. But, he does provide correction for those who desire to be right with God. There will be no excuses accepted when believers see glorious eternal gifts that God wanted to bestow on them for all eternity being denied of them.

2 Timothy 2:11-13
"It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful,
for He cannot deny Himself."

​

To accept Genesis 2:7 for what it does say does not mean one must bow down to young earth creationism.

Genesis 2:7
"Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being."




.
​

 

[fwwid]

Archeological discoveries have been debunking that belief for a good many times over the years. The Bible does contain historical fact, but that's not its only intention.

...

Notice something in what you said? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction..."


For correction?

Being as you are the self-appointed arbiter of Biblical interpretation and those things that stand in need for correction, you must also know then what portion of scripture should be interpreted literally versus those which should be interpreted figuratively. Man, did your pastor go to MIT or something?