How long has man been created.

[praisejahupeople]

Human concepts like right and wrong mean nothing to an allmighty an omnipotent God.

Not true,Being all powerful just not mean that Gods not righteous and just.

Yes, God did. God said "If you eat from that tree, you will die." Death was a concept well in the making; death pain and suffering were things God created long ago. If death didn't exist, then how could Adam have known what death was to warn Eve?

Curious reasoning.Much along the same lines as saying dont drive the car,you arent up to driving on the road just yet,you ignoring my warning,crashing the car yet blaming me,for the results of your actions.

If death didn't exist, then how could the Snake trick Eve into thinking that death was just a fairy tale (much like Genesis itself). See, you can't say man created these things, because these concepts were already made before man was made.

Adam and eve were perfect so the concept of them losing their life would be rather easy for them to comprehend id say.You sound atheist when you call Genesis a fairytale.Ever thought the only reason im answering you is to draw out whats in your heart for others to see?

God being all knowing and all seeing knew exactly what was going to happen in that garden; He predicted man's fall, and infact, He orchestrated it. (of course, its a metaphor, so no, dont believe that either)

I dont believe in predestination,i believe freewill is a gift,i believe Jehovah has inherent omniscience which means he chooses to look into the future.

The rest of your post speaks for itself.

stop trying to tell people adam and eve were real, talking snakes existed, etc, etc, etc. These are things oyu tell to children to scare them into obedience; I, however, am not that unintellegent, and for grown men and women trying to tell me these lies as if they were facts irritates and irks me, because it makes me believe they are telling their own children lies, and telling other children lies of the same calibur. Remember that part in the Bible saying the devil is the ultimate deciever and father of lies?

Indeed seems you have decided yourself whats right and whats wrong,your eyes have been opened,you know good from evil because you are the ultimate authority.

 

[GenemZ]

God could have easily smote evil from the earth; God could have never created disease death or pain and suffering.

Why not? Can you think of a better way to teach God's elect angels why God had to forbid the fallen angels back into his kingdom? The angels only had love for their fallen friends from the start because they lived in a world of innocence.

God could not let the fallen angels act upon their desires that he judged them for. So? To make it clear why Satan and his crew needed to be condemned, and must be isolated from those who love God? God allowed for man to become the teaching tool as to why that must be. Man is not yet in eternity. The angels are. So, God is now allowing for all the desires of the fallen angels to be acted out through men. Since man is not yet in eternity what is now done by men will not effect God's eternal kingdom.

Its all just so simple for you. Isn't it?


Hmmmmmm! GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Yes, God did. God said "If you eat from that tree, you will die." Death was a concept well in the making; death pain and suffering were things God created long ago. If death didn't exist, then how could Adam have known what death was to warn Eve? If death didn't exist, then how could the Snake trick Eve into thinking that death was just a fairy tale (much like Genesis itself).

It was Satan who understood death, not Adam. Satan witnessed to a T-Rex tearing up another and ending its life. The angels understood what death was. Adam only knew that what ever death was, its not something God approves of.


Matter of fact? After Adam ate? Did he drop dead physically? No...

Adam and Eve died "spiritually." Much to the shock of Satan, who thought he was going to get the new ruler of the earth out of his way.



In Christ, GeneZ

 

[mpok1519]

Not true,Being all powerful just not mean that Gods not righteous and just.

And being righteous and just includes allowing for death, sickness and pain, and suffering to exist, correct?

Curious reasoning.Much along the same lines as saying dont drive the car,you arent up to driving on the road just yet,you ignoring my warning,crashing the car yet blaming me,for the results of your actions.

Terrible analogy which doesn't fit this conversaiton at all. Me ftw again. Please try again.

Adam and eve were perfect so the concept of them losing their life would be rather easy for them to comprehend id say.You sound atheist when you call Genesis a fairytale.

No; I just don't sound like an idiot when I say that.

Ever thought the only reason im answering you is to draw out whats in your heart for others to see?

Like, love of truth? Whats so wrong about the truth?

Adam and Eve perfect? lol Oh yeah, because perfection includes disobedience, and the ability to get tricked byt alking snakes. Gotchya. But, your definition of perfection isn't the definition of perfection at all.

I dont believe in predestination,i believe freewill is a gift,i believe Jehovah has inherent omniscience which means he chooses to look into the future.

such infinitely complex concepts shoved into a simple finite explanation....but, i see what you're saying. Just because God knows what we're going to do doesnt mean He made us do it...although, he gave us means to do it, and we're all just extensions of God, so, in a way, it is Him doing it....in a way....

 

[GenemZ]

No; I just don't sound like an idiot when I say that.

Feel like an idiot to whom?




.

 

[fwwid]

Yet has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Take points were you want'm, don't when they're not convenient. Great tactic.


I recognise certain things due to bible knowledge. Just trying to glorify God.I dont take it personally if you dont agree.

You don't? The tone of your posts seem as though you've already decided to disagree with me even before you read my post - sounds pretty personal to me. FYI, I've talked to many Jehova's Witnesses in my day (invited them into my home) and it's been my experience that many of them "don't act their part." There are of course exceptions but most all discussions end with them telling me why I'll go to hell if I don't join your church and that it is only possible for their church to contain the truth. Sorry, doesn't sound like the message of peace Christ intended for us all. Not trying to hijack the thread but I though I would let you know because you brought it up.

 

[praisejahupeople]

You don't? The tone of your posts seem as though you've already decided to disagree with me even before you read my post - sounds pretty personal to me.

I disagree with your belief we came from primates.You have other beliefs i disagree with.You also have beliefs i agree with.Thats all.

FYI, I've talked to many Jehova's Witnesses in my day (invited them into my home) and it's been my experience that many of them "don't act their part."

Ok.

There are of course exceptions but most all discussions end with them telling me why I'll go to hell

Hmmm ok.

if I don't join your church and that it is only possible for their church to contain the truth. Sorry, doesn't sound like the message of peace Christ intended for us all.

ok.

 

[mpok1519]

It was Satan who understood death, not Adam. Satan witnessed to a T-Rex tearing up another and ending its life. The angels understood what death was. Adam only knew that what ever death was, its not something God approves of.


Matter of fact? After Adam ate? Did he drop dead physically? No...

Adam and Eve died "spiritually." Much to the shock of Satan, who thought he was going to get the new ruler of the earth out of his way.



In Christ, GeneZ

yet, death still existed, before 'the fall'.

proves my point, that, imperfection existed all along.

 

[mpok1519]

Feel like an idiot to whom?




.

the majority of existence.

then of course spending any time on this or any forum is kinda a waste of time that could be spent much better.

 

[JediMobius]

God could have easily smote evil from the earth; God could have never created disease death or pain and suffering.

He could have, but none of us would live to tell about it.

Jesus could have smote his captors and spared himself the cross, too.

Joh 18:1 When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was an olive grove, and he and his disciples went into it. 2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. 4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?" 5 "Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6 When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Its almost as if people think God's actions honestly make sense, when in reality, theres no rhyme or reason to any of it at times.

Just because it doesn't make sense to any particular human mind doesn't mean there's no rhyme or reason to God's actions. God doesn't just randomly decide what to do or not to do. Further, even if it doesn't make sense to you, it can make sense to any of us by God's wisdom.

Pro 3:19 By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; 20 by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew.

Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

God could have done many many things 'easily' (I am assuming by easily, its meant to show God's omnipotence) but it seems like God chooses the path less traveled.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Theres no Biblical proof that corresponds with scientific proof to illustrate young earth, or young humanity.

1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Biblical scripture will not tell you the age of a mountain, or the name of a plant. The Bible is not the authority on science.

That mountain is going to crumble and that plant is going to burn and science is going to become obsolete when Jesus comes back to get his sheep. It should be any day now.

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

 

[An Arch Angel]

It was Satan who understood death, not Adam. Satan witnessed to a T-Rex tearing up another and ending its life. The angels understood what death was. Adam only knew that what ever death was, its not something God approves of.


Matter of fact? After Adam ate? Did he drop dead physically? No...

Adam and Eve died "spiritually." Much to the shock of Satan, who thought he was going to get the new ruler of the earth out of his way.


In Christ, GeneZ

No,

God disproves of nothing,
This requires that it be judged “lesser” then it was created.
This is impossibility.

Also:

The ego is afraid
Death is an illusion to the ego,
Only the “state” of things changes
There is no death.
.

No! Satan was not shocked.
That “choice” freed man from a robot like existence. Satan “offered” man a choice that he did not have before. That "fall from grace" was actually the awakening of man.

God knew this,
It brought him great joy in experiencing
his first step in the giving of his “will” to man.

How little we understand of the father.

 

[An Arch Angel]

I gave a link that shows how Bible scholars of the past saw that the Bible speaks of prior creations. The evidence of the prior creations are the fossils.

Matter of fact, until the fossils were found and properly identified to be used as evidence for showing prehistoric life, many who found Scriptures pointing to previous "worlds" wondered a bit as to why the Bible should say such a thing. Which goes to show you, they were not motivated by some anti-evolution dogma to postulate what they were finding. It was simply taken for granted by the scholars finding this, and did not use it for debating. It was just something they found to be self evident.

Since there was no major controversy when men were discovering this in Scripture what they recorded was simply stored away in what they wrote. It was not until Darwin came on the scene that contemporaries of Darwin began digging up this older works and began to see why the Scripture states what it does. There has been previous creations on the face of this earth. Up until the dinosaur and evolution craze those works lay quietly on bookshelves being not greatly noticed.

Here it is again:



Read through the first few pages and you will see what I say is true.


Why didn't God make a kangaroo in the image of God? He didn't.

How colorful.. a straw man with a pallet. God did create an unfolding creation. He just did it one creation at a time. Not all as one.

This universe is to reveal to man and angels God's genius.

Joy? He will utterly destroy all you now see in creation (2 Peter 3:9-11). Its only here now to serve in a purpose of testing and teaching of men and angels. Creation today is God's classroom. Its been dirtied up and is fallen. He takes no joy in imperfection. What he will replace this present creation with will be an eternal heavens and earth. That he will take pleasure in.




No, I did not. I have been following the thread. I was led to believe you had not. For you just said...




I guess you did not read very well what the link reveals after all. For you would not be asking that question if you gave it a fair read.


In Christ, GeneZ

Ants,
It is like listening to ants describe me.

In the eyes of god there is no imperfection, “I am”.

Only the ego thinks it that much different (chosen)
from another life form.
The whole of the universe is his image my son

 

[JediMobius]

No,

God disproves of nothing,
This requires that it be judged “lesser” then it was created.
This is impossibility.

That's a curious statement. Do you really think God created death and 'saw that it was good?' God disproves of nothing? What about sin?

The ego is afraid
Death is an illusion to the ego,
Only the “state” of things changes
There is no death.

Death is separation from God. God is life. . . You really need to give us more than "there is no death."

No! Satan was not shocked.

That “choice” freed man from a robot like existence. Satan “offered” man a choice that he did not have before. That "fall from grace" was actually the awakening of man.

God knew this,
It brought him great joy in experiencing
his first step in the giving of his “will” to man.

How little we understand of the father.

Free will was not a result of the knowledge of good and evil, the eating of that fruit was a result of free will. If man was ever in a robot-like existence, then there could not be an initial choice. Robot's are computers. Computers do what they're told. How do you know Satan wasn't surprised? It seems to me that Satan is the stereotypical Bond villain - he really thinks he's going to win each time. Drat, foiled again.

That fall from grace was not the awakening of man, but the slumber of man. We are only awakened in Christ.

 

[An Arch Angel]

That's a curious statement. Do you really think God created death and 'saw that it was good?' God disproves of nothing? What about sin?



Death is separation from God. God is life. . . You really need to give us more than "there is no death."



Free will was not a result of the knowledge of good and evil, the eating of that fruit was a result of free will. If man was ever in a robot-like existence, then there could not be an initial choice. Robot's are computers. Computers do what they're told. How do you know Satan wasn't surprised? It seems to me that Satan is the stereotypical Bond villain - he really thinks he's going to win each time. Drat, foiled again.

That fall from grace was not the awakening of man, but the slumber of man. We are only awakened in Christ.

I thought you may have really wanted to talk until the “satan” part. I didn’t think we would agree, just exchange ideas, but I don’t remember putting anyone down? Did I?

Thanks
Anyway …


edit

Opps, just noticed the ant part ... silly me. I get fustrated sometimes.

 

[JediMobius]

Human concepts like right and wrong mean nothing to an allmighty an omnipotent God.

What does that even mean? The only reason we have the concept of right or wrong is because of God's righteousness.

God being all knowing and all seeing knew exactly what was going to happen in that garden; He predicted man's fall, and infact, He orchestrated it. (of course, its a metaphor, so no, dont believe that either)

What do you mean 'He orchestrated it'? He gave Adam and Eve a choice. obey God for their own good, or lose eternal life. How does telling them not to eat from the tree in any way suggest orchestration? Reverse psychology? Controlling their movements saying, "Stop hitting yourself!"? Satan orchestrated it, God allowed because free will allows that man learns from the consequences of his actions.

A metaphor is a tool, not a falsehood.

So as long as you don't presume you know whats best and right also, and stop trying to tell people adam and eve were real, talking snakes existed, etc, etc, etc. These are things oyu tell to children to scare them into obedience; I, however, am not that unintellegent, and for grown men and women trying to tell me these lies as if they were facts irritates and irks me, because it makes me believe they are telling their own children lies, and telling other children lies of the same calibur. Remember that part in the Bible saying the devil is the ultimate deciever and father of lies? Well, from what I can tell, the creationists have fell hook line and sinker for those lies.

Technically it says "serpent" which is much more broad a term. What if satan, in the garden, was literally embodied as a serpent? Perhaps not, but then serpent is a figurative portrait of Satan, which doesn't make the entire account a fable of sorts, and there's nothing to suggest that Adam and Eve weren't literally the first man and woman.

 

[JediMobius]

I thought you may have really wanted to talk until the “satan” part. I didn’t think we would agree, just exchange ideas, but I don’t remember putting anyone down? Did I?

Thanks
Anyway …

Calm down, no need to get defensive. I was asking a question. Really, how do you know Satan wasn't shocked? I ask because you said "No! Satan was not shocked." The exclamation point suggests an attitude of unwavering certainty. Honestly, your post came off a bit pretentious, but whatever.

Everything I wrote about God's nature, I learned from the bible. The way you put free will across makes no logical sense. So, you can re-word, elaborate, or ask your own questions of what I had to say. (I would like to see an actual reply to my other post.)

Why didn't you think we wouldn't agree? Shouldn't we end up agreeing on many things, both being Christian? Look, if I think something's way wrong, I'm going to try to show its fallacy, and I don't post just to shut people up, I post because it's worthy of discussion for one reason or another.

 

[GenemZ]

yet, death still existed, before 'the fall'.

proves my point, that, imperfection existed all along.

Not in this creation. God had to destroy the previous creation because of all the corruption. It was Satan who understood death, because Satan was an eye witness to dinosaurs killing other dinosaurs, etc.

God started over with a new creation. This current creation which began being devoid of imperfection.

Genesis 1:31
"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day
​

But, because volition had to be allowed to be free, potential to fall was always ready to be tested. The fact that Adam could fall was a part of the perfection. For the creations were not created just to see wildlife and pretty landscapes. The creation was created as a setting to test VOLITION of God's soon to be highest creation - man.

The fact that Adam could choose to fall was not imperfection. It was perfection of the highest order. It showed that God succeeded in TRULY creating a life which was autonomous from his own.

No other creator can create something that does not involve some pre-programming that the creator hardwires into his creation. Yet, God? The fact that Adam fell, reveals God was able to back off, create a life onto itself, and then involve that created life with his own. Impossible for man. Nothing is impossible for God.

Not Adam, but Satan and the angels understood "death" from the previous creation (more evidence that there was a prehsitoric creation). There was no way to convey to Adam what death was in a world where death had not yet been manifested. Adam could only sense it would not please God.

Yet, Satan having seen raptors ripe apart prey, understood immediately God's command concerning physical death. Satan was out to eliminate this new ruler of this planet by getting him to eat the fruit. But, God had a surprise in store for Satan and his angels. Adam's disobedience was about to introduce to them a new concept. Spiritual death. They ate. Adam and Eve ran and hid. They put on fig leaves. Dead bodies do not do such things!

Adam and the woman had died SPIRITUALLY after they ate.

Ephesians 2:4-5
"But because of his great love for us, God,
who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ
even when we were dead in transgressions
— it is by grace you have been saved."

​

God must have laughed when clever Satan was all set to drag away the dead bodies.

Adam and Eve died spiritually - immediately. That death caused the biological defect commonly referred to as the 'sin nature' to be passed down physically to all their offspring. Because all men are now born sinners - with defect - God can not impart the spiritual life immediately at birth. Now he must test the volition of men first, and if man passes God's test, then God imparts the human spirit making man alive spiritually. That is why Jesus said, "you must be born again."

The first birth is body and soul = physical life.

The new birth is body, soul and spirit = spiritual being.


Today in the Church age we are also given the gift of the Holy Spirit in addition to the human spirit. Christians sometimes get confused and think that born again means receiving the Holy Spirit, not simply being made body, soul and spirit.

Yet, when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, the Holy Spirit was not yet being given to all believers. That was to come later. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he needed to be born again to know he was the Messiah, right then, not later. Not after the church age began. For the disciples already knew who Jesus was. They had been born again. They were already consisting of body, soul, and spirit.


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[fwwid]

I disagree with your belief we came from primates.You have other beliefs i disagree with.You also have beliefs i agree with.Thats all.

"Primates" is probably the wrong word to use. While we are all children of God, according to modern scientific belief, we are also primates. It would be more accurate to say, "I disagree with your belief that we decended from hominid ancestors", or rather "ascended", haha. Know also that for obvious reasons, I also believe that said evolutionary process was guided and established by God. I think that's fine that you don't want to believe that and I think it's great that there are still people who question the validity of the evolutionary claims as to how things came to pass. Let us agree to disagree then.

 

[GenemZ]

"Primates" is probably the wrong word to use. While we are all children of God, according to modern scientific belief, we are also primates. It would be more accurate to say, "I disagree with your belief that we decended from hominid ancestors", or rather "ascended", haha. Know also that for obvious reasons, I also believe that said evolutionary process was guided and established by God. I think that's fine that you don't want to believe that and I think it's great that there are still people who question the validity of the evolutionary claims as to how things came to pass. Let us agree to disagree then.

If we are from primate stock? Then Jesus died on the cross for something that would be innate in animals. Jesus died for the animal nature.

And? Jesus was an animal. And, he died for a lie.


Have fun with that one... I'm sure you will.

 

[GenemZ]

I also believe that said evolutionary process was guided and established by God. I think that's fine that you don't want to believe that and I think it's great that there are still people who question the validity of the evolutionary claims as to how things came to pass. Let us agree to disagree then.

Evolution does take place. But, not as your theory dictates.





.