How long has man been created.

[mpok1519]

What does that even mean? The only reason we have the concept of right or wrong is because of God's righteousness.

Yeah, thats what they want you to believe...evidence? do we have evidence that God exists?

What do you mean 'He orchestrated it'? He gave Adam and Eve a choice. obey God for their own good, or lose eternal life. How does telling them not to eat from the tree in any way suggest orchestration? Reverse psychology? Controlling their movements saying, "Stop hitting yourself!"? Satan orchestrated it, God allowed because free will allows that man learns from the consequences of his actions.

When you set up a test you know someone beyond a shadow of doubt will fail, you're orchestrating their failure, seemingly fo your won sick amusement, in a way. When you tell someone not to do something, and you know they will disobey you, then you're organizing that very diobedience. Satan did not orchestrate it; Satan did not make Adam or Eve, or the Garden, or life, or the fruit, or sin, or an of that.

Technically it says "serpent" which is much more broad a term. What if satan, in the garden, was literally embodied as a serpent? Perhaps not, but then serpent is a figurative portrait of Satan, which doesn't make the entire account a fable of sorts, and there's nothing to suggest that Adam and Eve weren't literally the first man and woman.

theres no evidence to suggest they even existed; its a metaphor. For what? imo, love. Theres no evidence to suggest its anything other than a modified phonecian legend thought to have exalted SargonII.


------------------

Also, Genez, you post alot of scripture and Bible knowledge of your own brand and stock; yet, you demonstrate you do not know much about descent with modifiction, genetic mutation( including inversion, addition, subtraction, reversion, deletion, etc) or geneaological isolation.

THESE are the concepts we should be dscussing rather than religion which is interprettable into a million different semantic arguments which honestly have nothing to do wih evolution, etc.

We used to be hominids; I heard Genez say that Jesus died for animals then; well, duh; we are animals. smart, emotional, dumb animals all fighting over pieces of rock and ground, but, still, animals. Whats so wrong with that? What so dangerous if we did come from ape-like creatures? Why does it destroy one's own ego to apint they resist all ideas that they may be wrong regardless of the evidence in front of them. Psychologists contend that cognitive disonance is a sign of mental stress

Is it so terrible and frightening one's ego just cant take it?

 

[GenemZ]

Yeah, thats what they want you to believe...evidence? do we have evidence that God exists?

God is his own evidence.

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father.
No one knows the Son except the Father, and no
one knows the Father except the Son and those
to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
​

For those who God has secured as his own, there is empirical evidence. But it can not be conveyed to those whom reject God in their hearts.

Just like humans can not hear high pitched sounds that dogs do, believers can see evidence that unregenerate man remains oblivious to.

Unregenerate man can not test for God like he can test for inaudible sounds. For unregenerate man does not know where to begin to devise such a test for finding God. With sound we can know it exists because we already hear certain sounds. With God, you either hear Him, or you don't.

When you set up a test you know someone beyond a shadow of doubt will fail, you're orchestrating their failure, seemingly fo your won sick amusement, in a way. When you tell someone not to do something, and you know they will disobey you, then you're organizing that very diobedience. Satan did not orchestrate it; Satan did not make Adam or Eve, or the Garden, or life, or the fruit, or sin, or an of that.

I guess you got it all figured out? You must always be someone who knows how the story will turn out before the movie ends.

God is beyond the most brilliant story writer, infinitely. You are like a man who is stuck holding onto the ear of an elephant, and is absolutely positive an elephant is like a large fan.

We used to be hominids; I heard Genez say that Jesus died for animals then; well, duh; we are animals. smart, emotional, dumb animals all fighting over pieces of rock and ground, but, still, animals. Whats so wrong with that?

Nothing. Go worship a golden calf if you wish to remain consistent with what you have chosen to believe.

Man is not an animal. The body does not make for an animal's ways. Its the soul inside the body that determines who is an animal. That is why the Antichrist will be called 'the Beast.' For he will behave like an animal.

What so dangerous if we did come from ape-like creatures? Why does it destroy one's own ego to apint they resist all ideas that they may be wrong regardless of the evidence in front of them. Psychologists contend that cognitive disonance is a sign of mental stress

God's Word tells us that can not be a viable hypothesis. So? We must keep seeking until we find the truth if we are truly being led of the Spirit. You quit. You surrendered. Because your ego likes the boost it receives by the glorification of science in recent years. Science has gone beyond what God intended it to be for. Science was not given to man as a means for replacing God. It was for a greater understanding of the nature of God.

To see all the interacting complexities of the human bodily function should make every biological scientist get down on his knees and marvel at the beyond genius the Lord of Creation is. But? For some? Arrogance and pride overrode them from seeing the truth. Instead, such men invert their purpose and they begin to see themselves as the replacement for a God that they make out to be only fictional.

Is it so terrible and frightening one's ego just cant take it?

If you ever come around to the truth? You will answer that question for yourself. In great humility it will be done.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[mpok1519]

Science has gone beyond what God intended it for? Since when do you presume you can speak with such audacity to know what He has intended science for? Thats, just, insane man! to say "God didnt intend for science to observe and record data" is just bogus, ridiculous, and a flat out lie, straight from the heart of deception.

Yeah: God is beyond the most brilliant writer; blah blah. To me, God is beyond even Himself. God is beyond even lame interpretation of His word. God is beyond His word. God is better than and beyond any words you I or the pope says. in reality, God is beyond you and me.

God's word is metaphorical in some places!

Its hyperbolic in many! Similies! metaphors! all kinds of mechanics of language!

The complexity and mind boggleing capabilities of life are not evidence of "God" no matter how much you want them to be. You could cry, whine and moan, kick and scream, all you want, but no, biological complexity is not evidence for God's existence. Its evidence that life itself is very complex; thats it.

You're an animal Genez; a homo sapien. Whether you like it or not.

So, stop, please, telling people lies. It hurt society when you being to lie, and tell children lies, and lie to children, about how one metaphorical story is actual literall truth. Remember, the devil is the father of lies, and when you begin to tell children these fantastical metaphorical stories, you perpetuate that very deception.

 

[An Arch Angel]

Calm down, no need to get defensive. I was asking a question. Really, how do you know Satan wasn't shocked? I ask because you said "No! Satan was not shocked." The exclamation point suggests an attitude of unwavering certainty. Honestly, your post came off a bit pretentious, but whatever.

Everything I wrote about God's nature, I learned from the bible. The way you put free will across makes no logical sense. So, you can re-word, elaborate, or ask your own questions of what I had to say. (I would like to see an actual reply to my other post.)

Why didn't you think we wouldn't agree? Shouldn't we end up agreeing on many things, both being Christian? Look, if I think something's way wrong, I'm going to try to show its fallacy, and I don't post just to shut people up, I post because it's worthy of discussion for one reason or another.

NA, we don’t have to agree in the end. that is ok.

We need different ideas like we need types of workers. Without all the different ideas there would be no growth. I may not agree with the premise you put forth, but it may offer me the opportunity to modify, or even change, a few things I believe. If we all were electricians, we couldn’t build a building. There are many facets to God.

For example, most of the things I learned about god were outside of the bible. The will of god is going on all around us, I look where he is, not was. The bible is the backbone of a religion: Religions are of man’s construct.

I also had a spiritual experience. It was fast and it was powerful. I have no history of mental illness … nothing, noda. When we meet, it takes 3 min for us to know one another. It goes well beyond the books of any religion.

“Know me as I am” not what you wish me to be.
“I am as you are” do not take the words of another, you will understand him in your heart.

These were the things shown to me. Listen between your thoughts, do as you do, and listen for the sounds in the vastness of him in the gaps of thought.

I see now (!), I do not know why I put that in. My mistake.

 

[An Arch Angel]

Yeah, thats what they want you to believe...evidence? do we have evidence that God exists?



When you set up a test you know someone beyond a shadow of doubt will fail, you're orchestrating their failure, seemingly fo your won sick amusement, in a way. When you tell someone not to do something, and you know they will disobey you, then you're organizing that very diobedience. Satan did not orchestrate it; Satan did not make Adam or Eve, or the Garden, or life, or the fruit, or sin, or an of that.




theres no evidence to suggest they even existed; its a metaphor. For what? imo, love. Theres no evidence to suggest its anything other than a modified phonecian legend thought to have exalted SargonII.


------------------

Also, Genez, you post alot of scripture and Bible knowledge of your own brand and stock; yet, you demonstrate you do not know much about descent with modifiction, genetic mutation( including inversion, addition, subtraction, reversion, deletion, etc) or geneaological isolation.

THESE are the concepts we should be dscussing rather than religion which is interprettable into a million different semantic arguments which honestly have nothing to do wih evolution, etc.

We used to be hominids; I heard Genez say that Jesus died for animals then; well, duh; we are animals. smart, emotional, dumb animals all fighting over pieces of rock and ground, but, still, animals. Whats so wrong with that? What so dangerous if we did come from ape-like creatures? Why does it destroy one's own ego to apint they resist all ideas that they may be wrong regardless of the evidence in front of them. Psychologists contend that cognitive disonance is a sign of mental stress

Is it so terrible and frightening one's ego just cant take it?

I have evidence that I use to support my reasons for believing in God. I would not call it proof though. There is no "proof". If you’re interested I could describe them to you. I use DNA, self-replicating molecules, evolving robots, and I also use relative abundance of mass/energy/”awareness” on earth as compared to the universe.

 

[mpok1519]

but theres no observable quantifications or qualifications for such a thing like "God" to exist, ie, theres no proof either because that proof could be interpretted as dichotomous opposites of each other.

heres what we know; life exists, the universe exists, existence exists.

God is existence, really. Thats about as far as I think it can go.

 

[GenemZ]

Science has gone beyond what God intended it for? Since when do you presume you can speak with such audacity to know what He has intended science for?

Why such protesting?

You presume you can speak with such audacity to think God was introducing us to the Bible with Tinker Bell flying over with her star dusting wand in Genesis One.

This is really getting to the point where it has no place to go, except nowhere.

Nice to have met you.




.

 

[mpok1519]

because you want it to go nowhere through your empty rhetoric and flawed rationale and valuless logic. It goes nowhere because you cannot providce young earth evidence, or young humans evidence; we give you the fact, and then you give us scripture that says "Oh lord what the man about monkey people says is not true! blasphemy! Blasphemyyyy" and not evidence, not logic, not reasoning, not data; just scripture upheld to the most scrutinous laws of interpretation (meaning its interpretted in infinite ways, and there is no one true interpretation [other than its metaphorical value])

It just irks you that more people believe science than you.

 

[JediMobius]

If you were paying attention, you'd know that neither Genez nor I are promoting Young Earth Creationism, but creationism nonetheless. If you can't come to this discussion with an open mind and without an obvious prejudice toward any and all creationist thought, the discussion is unreasonable to begin with.

 

[praisejahupeople]

because you want it to go nowhere through your empty rhetoric and flawed rationale and valuless logic. It goes nowhere because you cannot providce young earth evidence, or young humans evidence;

Actually you need to read the thread again.However your righteous indignation towards the heathens who deny the holy gospel of darwin,dawkins and attenborough is moving and powerful.

we give you the fact,

You can start when you are ready.Dont let it get in the way of the amusing"me smart ,you stupid" rant you got going on though.

and then you give us scripture that says "Oh lord what the man about monkey people says is not true! blasphemy! Blasphemyyyy"

Correct.Its not true.

and not evidence, not logic, not reasoning, not data; just scripture upheld to the most scrutinous laws of interpretation (meaning its interpretted in infinite ways, and there is no one true interpretation [other than its metaphorical value])

I got another scripture that goes along the lines of Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers.Theres evidence logic reasoning and data in this thread.You seem to have skimmed over it.Hmmm interesting.

It just irks you that more people believe science than you.

No just makes me certain that these type of debates are valueless.

 

[praisejahupeople]

be good guys.Outta here.

 

[mpok1519]

well, creationism is just one thing; the literal interpretation of creation of the universe by biblical standards. Thats creationism; the big bang, evolution, abiogenesis, and all scientific jargon like that, is not creationism. We aren't even discussion intellegent design, or irreducible complexity, which are also bogus and have no scientific credibility.

By any other standards, its just the natural processes of the universe which need no God to exist, which is why, creationism (the myth) simply does not exist.

The discussion is unreasonable because creationism is unreasonable; infact, there is no discussion.

The universe's natural processes created life; end of discussion. To add anymore would just taint the integrity of the scientific standard itself.

The discussion should end because 'creationism' itself is unreasonable, and bogus just like IC, or ID. Unless theres some scientific evidence to be brought to the table, rather than just quoting scripture (which does NOTHING besides make the person who is quoting that scripture feel good about theirself, no it doesnt teach much other than people are willing to memorize and rehearse things just for their own entertainment)

And open mind? What do you mean? Open to fantasy? Open to insanity? Open to things that aren't real? Open to the fact that I should stand by and let others spread false ideas and myths? No. I will not be open to the fact that fantasy is another word for realiy.

 

[GenemZ]

.


.

He sat there all alone in the bleachers with a banner limply held in his hand.

The groundsman walking by noticed him sitting all alone.. He shouted up to him that he needed to leave. That the game had been over for hours, and that he must lock the gate...

 

[fwwid]

If we are from primate stock? Then Jesus died on the cross for something that would be innate in animals. Jesus died for the animal nature.

And? Jesus was an animal. And, he died for a lie.


Have fun with that one... I'm sure you will.

YOU SAY "if we are primates, then Jesus' sacrifice was a lie". YOU SAY "if we are primates, then Jesus died on the cross for something carnal. YOU CREATED the "if, then" statements, not me - nor do I agree with any of the assumptions you just made concerning my beliefs.

Who impregnated Mary anyway? Oh yeah, God the Father. How He did that is a topic for another discussion. Regardless, at the end of the day Jesus Christ was not "cut from the same cloth" as we were; He was and remains an eternal member of the Godhead. While He did descend to possess a mortal body that could die, He was a perfect man who had not only overcome the imperfections of the flesh but also this world in it's entirety. "Man cannot live on bread alone, but on every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God." He was the proverbial "unblemished lamb", whose sacrifice was eternal.

Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.

I know it's difficult for you Genez to accept the fact that maybe, maybe, maybe it is possible for someone out there to have a greater testimony of the Savior Jesus Christ then you. It tortures your mind to think that anybody knows anything regarding the Father's plan that you do not. It's difficult for you to fathom that God is capable of all things and that He has the power to create man in any form He deems necessary or possible. It's hard to accept the fact that your body actually is not perfect, and that perhaps "God's method" of forming an imperfect vessel into which our spirits can be cast into the "refiner's fire" is "the better way". Lastly, it's evident how hard it is for you to grasp that "IF" God did create man through evolutionary processes, "THEN" this does not make God out to be all those atrocious things anti-evolutionists say about Him - namely, a liar, powerless, and well, nonexistent.

If you truly believe in God, and truly believe that He exists, then you have to believe (by virtue of said belief) that God has the power and authority to do whatever He wants, when and how He wants to do it. Once we have this established, one need only look at the evidence .

If you still choose not to believe this, then that's fine, just don't set up the "if, then" ultimatums on God's behalf - threatening disloyalty and subversion in the event that He tells you something you don't want to hear.

"1 Pet. 5: 5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." We are all God's "younger".

Again, let us agree to disagree. Peace is often established through reconciliation.

 

[GenemZ]

YOU SAY "if we are primates, then Jesus' sacrifice was a lie". YOU SAY "if we are primates, then Jesus died on the cross for something carnal.

First sentence and you are already distorting what I said. Being carnal, and being an animal are not the same thing.

At this juncture its only reasonable for me to realize why I can not continue to try to reason with you. Its not that you are stupid. Just blind to certain realities and concepts that preclude having a real exchange of ideas with you. What's worse. You really think you understand Christianity. I do not know what kind of exposure you have had to what you now brand Christianity. But, you seem to think that what you have been exposed to is all there is to it. That we are all the same. Far from it.

That's why...

Enjoy your sabbatical.


.

 

[fwwid]

First sentence and you are already distorting what I said. Being carnal, and being an animal are not the same thing.

At this juncture its only reasonable for me to realize why I can not continue to try to reason with you. Its not that you are stupid. Just blind to certain realities and concepts that preclude having a real exchange of ideas with you. What's worse. You really think you understand Christianity. I do not know what kind of exposure you have had to what you now brand Christianity. But, you seem to think that what you have been exposed to is all there is to it. That we are all the same. Far from it.

That's why...

Enjoy your sabbatical.

There is a difference between carnal and animal, but they are in the same ballpark to what you were inferring. Typical of you to finish with a "your word only" statement and then leave in a "it's my ball, and I'm taking it home...because it's mine" fashion. If your belief is that it was my intention to make you upset then you need to calm down and finish reading what I posted instead of making a presumptuous decision like your notorious for doing; it's as though you welcome misunderstanding for the sake of the debate rather then being a promoter of peace.

Your last statement about us being the same is paradoxical. This whole discussion has been highlighted by the fact that as Christians, we will all have differing beliefs on certain points of doctrine - mostly those which are not necessary concerning the salvation of man. You on the other hand have happily placed yourself on your own ivory tower, talking down to all those who don't happen to believe, much less agree with what you hold to be true.

That's fine that you don't want to end our discussion on a good note. The prideful monopoly player often throws his pieces into the air and storms out of the room in a tirade just as you have done. "Evidently", my invitation to reconciliation wasn't what "you wanted to hear"; Christ said this would happen.

 

[GenemZ]

There is a difference between carnal and animal, but they are in the same ballpark to what you were inferring. Typical of you to finish with a "your word only" statement and then leave in a "it's my ball, and I'm taking it home...because it's mine" fashion. If your belief is that it was my intention to make you upset then you need to calm down and finish reading what I posted instead of making a presumptuous decision like your notorious for doing; it's as though you welcome misunderstanding for the sake of the debate rather then being a promoter of peace.

Your last statement about us being the same is paradoxical. This whole discussion has been highlighted by the fact that as Christians, we will all have differing beliefs on certain points of doctrine - mostly those which are not necessary concerning the salvation of man. You on the other hand have happily placed yourself on your own ivory tower, talking down to all those who don't happen to believe, much less agree with what you hold to be true.

That's fine that you don't want to end our discussion on a good note. The prideful monopoly player often throws his pieces into the air and storms out of the room in a tirade just as you have done. "Evidently", my invitation to reconciliation wasn't what "you wanted to hear"; Christ said this would happen.

There you go.

 

[fwwid]

There you go.

 

[fwwid]

What's worse. You really think you understand Christianity. I do not know what kind of exposure you have had to what you now brand Christianity.

Hahahahahaha, tell me what true Christianity is Genez. Lead me to the church that Christ Himself is leading - I hear He likes to enlist clergy educated at MIT.

Eph. 2: 20
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Evidently, you're audacious enough to carry the mantle of "Lo, here is Christ" - gutsy.

Matt. 24: 23
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Mark 13: 21
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Luke 17: 21
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[An Arch Angel]

but theres no observable quantifications or qualifications for such a thing like "God" to exist, ie, theres no proof either because that proof could be interpretted as dichotomous opposites of each other.

heres what we know; life exists, the universe exists, existence exists.

God is existence, really. Thats about as far as I think it can go.

This is correct, we do not have the technology yet to make any direct measurements yet. We may, however, have already made them.

TRUE, it is dichotomous, GOD is all things. I do not know of anything that does not have an opposite. I also think that without this “opposite” neither exist.

I am too pragmatic for that stance about existence, But I understand. We need to be careful because it is us that determine what existence is. Look at Genz, he has exist defined nicely, but is it really there?

If you define a thing as everything, it is nothing
I am the alpha and the omega.
Dichotomy.